Floods & MRH90
TBM, don't think I alluded to the fact that aid to civil power was not an ADF consideration/role. In fact I did state that they are often called upon, directed by the Government and away doing civil aid not only in this country but elsewhere.
As bushranger said "Those in Australia who misguidedly believe that provision of aid to civil power is not an overriding consideration in defence capabilities employment should have a careful read of Defence White Paper 2009." Very true, a consideration but not the core business and as BR succinctly put it, although an over riding consideration has been severely eroded over the last number of years due to more costly less effective airframes.
Let's not forget that the ADF is fully funded by the citizens of Australia not the "government"!
Quite correct, so? The Government directs the ADF not the citizens.
When our fellow citizens are in trouble we must ALL be there
No argument but I am not to certain of your point. Again I stated the ADF personal have to wait to be told when, where to go and what to do. They cannot just take off to give hand, with or without equipment.
BR talks about cost effectiveness and utility. Should have kept the Huey, should have kept the Caribou or an updated version.
My back is up over the indication that the ADF and its people have not done the right thing. The ADF and its people cannot do anything unless they are directed to or already have in place an approved and authorised plan of action. One for flood relief, one for fire relief.
Christmas stand down is nonsense. Why. When do you suggest we stand down people that have spent the last Christmas away/overseas. The ADF call it a stand down because people are still on call, not a shut down.
As bushranger said "Those in Australia who misguidedly believe that provision of aid to civil power is not an overriding consideration in defence capabilities employment should have a careful read of Defence White Paper 2009." Very true, a consideration but not the core business and as BR succinctly put it, although an over riding consideration has been severely eroded over the last number of years due to more costly less effective airframes.
Let's not forget that the ADF is fully funded by the citizens of Australia not the "government"!
Quite correct, so? The Government directs the ADF not the citizens.
When our fellow citizens are in trouble we must ALL be there
No argument but I am not to certain of your point. Again I stated the ADF personal have to wait to be told when, where to go and what to do. They cannot just take off to give hand, with or without equipment.
BR talks about cost effectiveness and utility. Should have kept the Huey, should have kept the Caribou or an updated version.
My back is up over the indication that the ADF and its people have not done the right thing. The ADF and its people cannot do anything unless they are directed to or already have in place an approved and authorised plan of action. One for flood relief, one for fire relief.
Christmas stand down is nonsense. Why. When do you suggest we stand down people that have spent the last Christmas away/overseas. The ADF call it a stand down because people are still on call, not a shut down.
Last edited by finestkind; 19th Jan 2011 at 22:15.
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I agree with bushranger, Good Morning Sir.
Experience not youthful energy should be what we are looking for, it is pointless to have the flashy new models on the flight line, if we lack the means to operate them. Also the flash models often will not do a good job as the less updated machine, because for many of the tasks involved the flash model is an overkill with a corresponding higher operating cost.
The best value for money we ever bought was the UH1 series helicopter, and I personally think they should have been retained, but upgraded to the latest series.
We should have a plan for both usage and procurement, as an outsider looking in, we seem to buy the flavour of the month, instead of what is fit for purpose.
My attitude is that if the US forces did not buy it, then we should look hard and long at whether we should.
Aircraft out of Europe appear often to be lacking in operational aspects and can be very expensive to operate.
I suspect that the RAF and other operators are going to find them very expensive to operate, hope I am wrong.
Regards
Col
Experience not youthful energy should be what we are looking for, it is pointless to have the flashy new models on the flight line, if we lack the means to operate them. Also the flash models often will not do a good job as the less updated machine, because for many of the tasks involved the flash model is an overkill with a corresponding higher operating cost.
The best value for money we ever bought was the UH1 series helicopter, and I personally think they should have been retained, but upgraded to the latest series.
We should have a plan for both usage and procurement, as an outsider looking in, we seem to buy the flavour of the month, instead of what is fit for purpose.
My attitude is that if the US forces did not buy it, then we should look hard and long at whether we should.
Aircraft out of Europe appear often to be lacking in operational aspects and can be very expensive to operate.
I suspect that the RAF and other operators are going to find them very expensive to operate, hope I am wrong.
Regards
Col
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Finestkind
Wiki says that there are 57,697 full-time active-duty personnel, 21,248 active reserves and 22,166 standby reserves. It also state that about 3000 are deployed at any one time. Those that spent last Christmas away got leave following that duty, and would, I'm sure have given their stand down to potentially save a life or assist with the recovery.
Of cause they can. That is why they have a Commanding Officer and risk management profiles....''I'm sorry I can't get airborne to rescue the family on the roof in Oakey as CDF hasn't said I can....'' what a load of horse brasses! Why do we give people rank, command and authority if they cannot use common sense.
Did Oakey for example call the local councils (and their parent HQ) and say íf you ask through official channels we can have XX Blackhawks and XX Kiowas and a 412 ready in XX days'. If not, they should have done as the personnel on that base live in the local community and should be seeking to assist in anyway they can, even if it means playing the system! Does the ADF have an effective recall system........?
Wiki says that there are 57,697 full-time active-duty personnel, 21,248 active reserves and 22,166 standby reserves. It also state that about 3000 are deployed at any one time. Those that spent last Christmas away got leave following that duty, and would, I'm sure have given their stand down to potentially save a life or assist with the recovery.
They cannot just take off to give hand, with or without equipment.
Did Oakey for example call the local councils (and their parent HQ) and say íf you ask through official channels we can have XX Blackhawks and XX Kiowas and a 412 ready in XX days'. If not, they should have done as the personnel on that base live in the local community and should be seeking to assist in anyway they can, even if it means playing the system! Does the ADF have an effective recall system........?
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FFS.
There where 2 Sea Kings out for 12 hours in the Lockyer Valley the day after the flash floods who picked up 97 people between them and a few Blackhawks that were out and about (from Oakey I assume). Thye flew in very bad weather the whole day and its debatable whether more assets could have been effectively used that day given the weather and the general level of unknown as to where people needed help. Not hitting each other would have been the biggest problem with more assets given the weather.
The next day there where in the vicinity of 9 Helo's operating from AMB, which quickly lifted to (guesstimate) around 15 to 20 helo's. The day I looked on the ramp this week there where at least 8 Blackhawks, 4 or so Kiowas, the two Navy Augusta's, 3 Sea Kings and a Chinook.
It gets to the point where there are too many assets available and deconfliction and safe operations (not running into each other) becomes the limiting factor.
There are currently 150 AMB based RAAF personnel out every day in the Ipswich area assisting in the clean-up; again that number is about right and any more would see people standing around looking for work. This is Ipswich only, there are plenty more Army about in the city and the Lockyer.
And OBTW; we still have our day job to do.
If you dont know what response the ADF supplied, then dont crap on with idle comment. It was about right all round - balanced and useable; any more would not have been able to be utilised. Dont forget the ADF response is in support of the Govt / Council effort and is at civil direction.
There where 2 Sea Kings out for 12 hours in the Lockyer Valley the day after the flash floods who picked up 97 people between them and a few Blackhawks that were out and about (from Oakey I assume). Thye flew in very bad weather the whole day and its debatable whether more assets could have been effectively used that day given the weather and the general level of unknown as to where people needed help. Not hitting each other would have been the biggest problem with more assets given the weather.
The next day there where in the vicinity of 9 Helo's operating from AMB, which quickly lifted to (guesstimate) around 15 to 20 helo's. The day I looked on the ramp this week there where at least 8 Blackhawks, 4 or so Kiowas, the two Navy Augusta's, 3 Sea Kings and a Chinook.
It gets to the point where there are too many assets available and deconfliction and safe operations (not running into each other) becomes the limiting factor.
There are currently 150 AMB based RAAF personnel out every day in the Ipswich area assisting in the clean-up; again that number is about right and any more would see people standing around looking for work. This is Ipswich only, there are plenty more Army about in the city and the Lockyer.
And OBTW; we still have our day job to do.
If you dont know what response the ADF supplied, then dont crap on with idle comment. It was about right all round - balanced and useable; any more would not have been able to be utilised. Dont forget the ADF response is in support of the Govt / Council effort and is at civil direction.
HPT,
Do you honestly think anyone is debating the point that in-service personal WOULD NOT GIVE UP THEIR LEAVE TO SAVE LIVES. Get a grip.
My beef is with someone bitching about a stand down period over Christmas. Lots of people, police, nurses, ADF work over Christmas. To say the ADF shouldn’t have a stand down period over Christmas is rubbish. Did all those personal work last Christmas, nope. Did those that did have leave at some other time, yep and that was just brilliant to have leave with the family but miss out on Christmas with the kids.
Yep let’s see the last flood that bad was in 1974. We have a certain amount of capacity and resources. Why don’t we have the capability with the ADF helo’s for fire fighting? What is more likely over summer, a catastrophic floods or fire. Back to my last post, if you want the capability pay for it.
Yep you are so right, launch the fleet. We don’t have any SOP’s, authority, briefing’s but we are just gunna launch and save the day. What a load of drivel. And no doubt if a helo pilot was at his aircraft and was informed that someone was in imminent danger and had details of where and had a crew and had the aircraft ready to go, yeah I can guarantee he would have turned and burned and taken the consequences later, but where any of those things lined up??????
As for the rest read ftrplt’s post.
Do you honestly think anyone is debating the point that in-service personal WOULD NOT GIVE UP THEIR LEAVE TO SAVE LIVES. Get a grip.
My beef is with someone bitching about a stand down period over Christmas. Lots of people, police, nurses, ADF work over Christmas. To say the ADF shouldn’t have a stand down period over Christmas is rubbish. Did all those personal work last Christmas, nope. Did those that did have leave at some other time, yep and that was just brilliant to have leave with the family but miss out on Christmas with the kids.
Yep let’s see the last flood that bad was in 1974. We have a certain amount of capacity and resources. Why don’t we have the capability with the ADF helo’s for fire fighting? What is more likely over summer, a catastrophic floods or fire. Back to my last post, if you want the capability pay for it.
Yep you are so right, launch the fleet. We don’t have any SOP’s, authority, briefing’s but we are just gunna launch and save the day. What a load of drivel. And no doubt if a helo pilot was at his aircraft and was informed that someone was in imminent danger and had details of where and had a crew and had the aircraft ready to go, yeah I can guarantee he would have turned and burned and taken the consequences later, but where any of those things lined up??????
As for the rest read ftrplt’s post.
Oldpinger
In the olden days we had people on standby for these sorts of things. Much planning took place in the period prior to the Xmas stand-down on likelihoods/contingencies. [I worked 7 Xmas days in a row eg.] Of course the general holiday break should occur for all non-essential people especially those returning from tours o/s.
Mate when people are losing their lives getting going is real urgent no matter who pays. It could be you or your family next.....
[Obviously must be authorised for f$$%ks sake.]
Here there is no attempt to criticise the guys and girls who participated at all. They are to be highly commended actually. The argument is about the overall preparation and early deployment. Also we've spent big bucks of helicopters that don't seem up to the task [MRH90]..
Chopper engine woes for defence force | Herald Sun
In the olden days we had people on standby for these sorts of things. Much planning took place in the period prior to the Xmas stand-down on likelihoods/contingencies. [I worked 7 Xmas days in a row eg.] Of course the general holiday break should occur for all non-essential people especially those returning from tours o/s.
Mate when people are losing their lives getting going is real urgent no matter who pays. It could be you or your family next.....
[Obviously must be authorised for f$$%ks sake.]
Here there is no attempt to criticise the guys and girls who participated at all. They are to be highly commended actually. The argument is about the overall preparation and early deployment. Also we've spent big bucks of helicopters that don't seem up to the task [MRH90]..
Chopper engine woes for defence force | Herald Sun
Last edited by TBM-Legend; 21st Jan 2011 at 00:57.
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TBM - I'll expand on my orignal post to try and make it easier to understand.
The govt, via JOC, issued a DACC requirement as part of an OPR to 5 Avn Regt towards the end of the year (like they always do). That requirement was for:
In all the spare time B SQN has had during the lazy second half of 2010 that involved CATA, TLAG rotations, MTF MRE, HAMEL and actually trying to take some leave, crews and support pers were identified, jets were serivced and had big "DACC - Do not touch" signs on them. By mid Dec 10 crews, jets and spt pers were ID'd and warned out for the 48 hrs NTM requirement over their approved leave period.
Here's the kicker TBM. 5 Avn got the call (from someone of authority, not just off the CO's back) on NYE to encat the DACC requirement. Three hours later the first two jets had lifted and were enroute. And they've been working and saving lives since.
This small example of only ONE aspect of the DACC response clearly shows that the prior prep was not an issue. WRT early deployment of aviation assets, write a letter to your local MP asking for an explaination as that's where those decisions are made.
The govt, via JOC, issued a DACC requirement as part of an OPR to 5 Avn Regt towards the end of the year (like they always do). That requirement was for:
- four jets (S70s), for three online
- with wings and jugs
- and spt pers
- with xx hrs clear per jet
- on 48 hrs NTM
In all the spare time B SQN has had during the lazy second half of 2010 that involved CATA, TLAG rotations, MTF MRE, HAMEL and actually trying to take some leave, crews and support pers were identified, jets were serivced and had big "DACC - Do not touch" signs on them. By mid Dec 10 crews, jets and spt pers were ID'd and warned out for the 48 hrs NTM requirement over their approved leave period.
Here's the kicker TBM. 5 Avn got the call (from someone of authority, not just off the CO's back) on NYE to encat the DACC requirement. Three hours later the first two jets had lifted and were enroute. And they've been working and saving lives since.
This small example of only ONE aspect of the DACC response clearly shows that the prior prep was not an issue. WRT early deployment of aviation assets, write a letter to your local MP asking for an explaination as that's where those decisions are made.
Last edited by reacher; 21st Jan 2011 at 04:33.
Reacher.
All points taken.
Mine is one for the "higher up" echelon that seem to need remind about the possibility of tragic events coming on us with or without notice.
For example in my days at Willitown the SAR Huey crew[s] were always on immediate recall and would spend their time at the base. We rescued a crew from a container ship [Sigma] on a Sunday afternoon as she was blown off her anchor into the beach. In Townsville 35 Sqn had a SAR callout for both Caribou and Hueys right through the period. At Nowra when I was there we had flash floods and helos airborne within a couple of hours but that was 30 years ago....
I will never criticise the boys and girls on the front line rather the opposite my point is resourcing and organising....
All points taken.
Mine is one for the "higher up" echelon that seem to need remind about the possibility of tragic events coming on us with or without notice.
For example in my days at Willitown the SAR Huey crew[s] were always on immediate recall and would spend their time at the base. We rescued a crew from a container ship [Sigma] on a Sunday afternoon as she was blown off her anchor into the beach. In Townsville 35 Sqn had a SAR callout for both Caribou and Hueys right through the period. At Nowra when I was there we had flash floods and helos airborne within a couple of hours but that was 30 years ago....
I will never criticise the boys and girls on the front line rather the opposite my point is resourcing and organising....
TBM
I am not sure the level of readiness that you needed to maintain in order to support the civil community 30 years ago is really needed now. The East coast of Australia these days has probably a dozen very capable multi engine IFR machines (many of which utilise NVDs, automatic appraoch and hover etc) whose core job is SAR/EMS on call 24/7.
Granted to ADF needs to maintain a response capability for these extreme events however there probably isn't the reliance on military machines there was 30 years ago.
Job well done to all civil and military operators
Turkey
I am not sure the level of readiness that you needed to maintain in order to support the civil community 30 years ago is really needed now. The East coast of Australia these days has probably a dozen very capable multi engine IFR machines (many of which utilise NVDs, automatic appraoch and hover etc) whose core job is SAR/EMS on call 24/7.
Granted to ADF needs to maintain a response capability for these extreme events however there probably isn't the reliance on military machines there was 30 years ago.
Job well done to all civil and military operators
Turkey
Reacher,
Thanks for the details BUT it won't be enough for some on this thread. The expectation will be that all assets will be on-line with all the crew and maintainers ready to launch with 2 hours NTM.
Same in my time. We had the nominated number of aircraft suited up with the support pers ready to go at, if memory serves me, 24hours NTM.
Thanks for the details BUT it won't be enough for some on this thread. The expectation will be that all assets will be on-line with all the crew and maintainers ready to launch with 2 hours NTM.
Same in my time. We had the nominated number of aircraft suited up with the support pers ready to go at, if memory serves me, 24hours NTM.
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Turkeyslapper makes a good point. 30-40 years ago, the military was pretty much the only kid on the block with a credible rotary wing element for disaster relief. Today, there are any number of civil opertors with all sorts of kit, some of it, (thanks to, IMHO, some really flawed decisions on retirement/replacement of the military's rotary wing force), probably better suited to civil disaster relief than much of the military RW equipment.
I was very much in the thick of it in a Huey in both the '73 and '74 floods, doing, (if I say myself), some pretty silly things (with the benefit of hindsight) to get people out of some very tricky situations. We flew from first light to (usually) just after last light, and I was too knackered at the end of every day to take up any of the many offers of a free beer from the many people we brought in from flooded farms. It was usually just a stubby while we did the post flight paperwork, then back into town for a meal and straight to bed.
We spent the first few nights on task camping in the civil terminal at Narrabri airport, and would have to pack everything up and have it out of sight each morning before the pax started arriving to take the morning ANSW F27 flight to Sydney.
We had exceeded our mandated maximum monthly hours before two weeks on task. I remember contacting Op Com to tell them of this. Their reply was: "Keep flying."
I remember coming into (forget the town now. I think it was Wee War) with... shall we say "a goodly number" of Aboriginal children literally filling every square inch of space available in the Huey's cargo compartment to find a Caribou had come in while we were away packed with television crews and newspaper reporters. Luckily, my Crewman spotted all the cameras, allowing me time to put down briefly on the airfield with the Caribou blocking the view between us and the cameras. Kicked off "a goodly number minus seven" children and our second Crewman, then hover taxied in to unload seven grinning children for the cameras.
At least one of the media types did ask where the "goodly number" of kids who wandered in to the terminal area from behind the Caribou a few minutes later, shepherded by a lone RAAF Crewman, came from. We shrugged and said: "dunno; from out of the sky".
It's also instructive to see the way the mainstream media reported our efforts then versus they way they have reported the AAAvn crews equally great efforts in the recent floods. Back in 73/74, with Vietnam still fresh in the collective media mind, we were still all warmongering killers of women and children to most of the media types of the day and the only time I recall them taking any notice of us was when Reg and his crew were killed up near Wee War - and then they were just looking to get one of us to say something controversial on camera.
I can recall one of our highly esteemed superfitters (Hoss, are you still out thre?) made a point of exaggeratedly scratching his genital area any time the media pack approached with cameras rolling. (In those far off, genteel days, that was enough to ruin the shot for the evening news.) We loved them about as much as they loved us...
I was very much in the thick of it in a Huey in both the '73 and '74 floods, doing, (if I say myself), some pretty silly things (with the benefit of hindsight) to get people out of some very tricky situations. We flew from first light to (usually) just after last light, and I was too knackered at the end of every day to take up any of the many offers of a free beer from the many people we brought in from flooded farms. It was usually just a stubby while we did the post flight paperwork, then back into town for a meal and straight to bed.
We spent the first few nights on task camping in the civil terminal at Narrabri airport, and would have to pack everything up and have it out of sight each morning before the pax started arriving to take the morning ANSW F27 flight to Sydney.
We had exceeded our mandated maximum monthly hours before two weeks on task. I remember contacting Op Com to tell them of this. Their reply was: "Keep flying."
I remember coming into (forget the town now. I think it was Wee War) with... shall we say "a goodly number" of Aboriginal children literally filling every square inch of space available in the Huey's cargo compartment to find a Caribou had come in while we were away packed with television crews and newspaper reporters. Luckily, my Crewman spotted all the cameras, allowing me time to put down briefly on the airfield with the Caribou blocking the view between us and the cameras. Kicked off "a goodly number minus seven" children and our second Crewman, then hover taxied in to unload seven grinning children for the cameras.
At least one of the media types did ask where the "goodly number" of kids who wandered in to the terminal area from behind the Caribou a few minutes later, shepherded by a lone RAAF Crewman, came from. We shrugged and said: "dunno; from out of the sky".
It's also instructive to see the way the mainstream media reported our efforts then versus they way they have reported the AAAvn crews equally great efforts in the recent floods. Back in 73/74, with Vietnam still fresh in the collective media mind, we were still all warmongering killers of women and children to most of the media types of the day and the only time I recall them taking any notice of us was when Reg and his crew were killed up near Wee War - and then they were just looking to get one of us to say something controversial on camera.
I can recall one of our highly esteemed superfitters (Hoss, are you still out thre?) made a point of exaggeratedly scratching his genital area any time the media pack approached with cameras rolling. (In those far off, genteel days, that was enough to ruin the shot for the evening news.) We loved them about as much as they loved us...
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not to mention 30 / 40 years ago, we didnt have mobile telephones, pagers, internet, remote work computer access capability, CO's with Blackberries etc etc etc.
Contact and callout was a different beast even 15 years ago.
Do you really think that with the number of 'Operation Deny Christmas' events that have occured in the not to distant past that the "higher up" need reminding??
Contact and callout was a different beast even 15 years ago.
Mine is one for the "higher up" echelon that seem to need remind about the possibility of tragic events coming on us with or without notice.
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'Exigencies of the Service'
Elaborating a bit on Wiley's post #31.
There was virtually continuous rain throughout Queensland and New South Wales for about 2 weeks preceding the 1974 floods. During the preceding 2 years, I held the staff appointment of HOPS at Headquarters Operational Command Glenbrook (Penrith) having got the post and cell established and had just been posted back into 9SQN at Amberley.
Packing up and cleaning a married quarter was the usual 'fun' and shampooing of carpets made them all go mildew. As the flood situation developed, I got fired up to Amberley post haste as all other squadron execs were out flying. Squadron aircrew accommodation was then a very cramped little building and some demountables on the edge of the tarmac (3 years post-Vietnam) and a mess. On day 1, I launched an Iroquois southwards toward flooded NSW and learned an hour or so later that it had crashed en route with fatal consequences resulting in recovery action, notifications and associated admin. I was then despatched to Townsville to co-ordinate the Air Force flood relief effort in northern Queensland.
My wife had to handle the final aspects of removal, then drove up through flooded NSW in a long wheel base Landrover with 5 kids including a baby less than a year old. Nil communications when she arrived at Amberley to find me gone and had to paddle around to find milk and somewhere to camp. The removal had of course been disrupted and I got back to Amberley about 2 weeks later. 'Exigencies of the Service' I guess, but it all got too much after 5 interstate postings in 6 years so I baled out in 1978.
There was virtually continuous rain throughout Queensland and New South Wales for about 2 weeks preceding the 1974 floods. During the preceding 2 years, I held the staff appointment of HOPS at Headquarters Operational Command Glenbrook (Penrith) having got the post and cell established and had just been posted back into 9SQN at Amberley.
Packing up and cleaning a married quarter was the usual 'fun' and shampooing of carpets made them all go mildew. As the flood situation developed, I got fired up to Amberley post haste as all other squadron execs were out flying. Squadron aircrew accommodation was then a very cramped little building and some demountables on the edge of the tarmac (3 years post-Vietnam) and a mess. On day 1, I launched an Iroquois southwards toward flooded NSW and learned an hour or so later that it had crashed en route with fatal consequences resulting in recovery action, notifications and associated admin. I was then despatched to Townsville to co-ordinate the Air Force flood relief effort in northern Queensland.
My wife had to handle the final aspects of removal, then drove up through flooded NSW in a long wheel base Landrover with 5 kids including a baby less than a year old. Nil communications when she arrived at Amberley to find me gone and had to paddle around to find milk and somewhere to camp. The removal had of course been disrupted and I got back to Amberley about 2 weeks later. 'Exigencies of the Service' I guess, but it all got too much after 5 interstate postings in 6 years so I baled out in 1978.
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 21st Jan 2011 at 19:05.
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Why a Bell 412?
Several mentions this thread re a Bell 412 operated by Army Aviation; yet this media bit on 6 July 2010 said 5 Iroquois were being retained for training purposes: Army Iroquois choppers become national treasures - Defence News - Department of Defence
Can somebody please explain?
Can somebody please explain?
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AVNTC acft evacuated the entire township of Condamine on very short notice, despite them not having a notice to move. They pretty much self-mobilised in expectation of the call.
All Black Hawks have hoists, and they are fitted 90% of the time.
MRH 90 has not yet reached any operational release, quite delayed now. They would have been excellent for the types of ops the guys did in the Lockyer Valley and Condamine, in poor weather, bad light and thunderstorms. They all have hoists too.
The ADF cannot deploy its assets to help out at a local level unless there is a clear risk to life - and even then there must be a request from the local authority before actually doing anything. The chain for DACC requests can be tortuous but can be reduced to a phone call from a policeman to a soldier if life is immediately at risk.
BR71 as far as I know, the five hueys mentioned are just those that are able to be flown, as warbirds, I believe. The rest are not intended to be airworthy.
eg
All Black Hawks have hoists, and they are fitted 90% of the time.
MRH 90 has not yet reached any operational release, quite delayed now. They would have been excellent for the types of ops the guys did in the Lockyer Valley and Condamine, in poor weather, bad light and thunderstorms. They all have hoists too.
The ADF cannot deploy its assets to help out at a local level unless there is a clear risk to life - and even then there must be a request from the local authority before actually doing anything. The chain for DACC requests can be tortuous but can be reduced to a phone call from a policeman to a soldier if life is immediately at risk.
BR71 as far as I know, the five hueys mentioned are just those that are able to be flown, as warbirds, I believe. The rest are not intended to be airworthy.
eg
where the S76's from AMB deployed? Seems like a great cab for the mission in their area.
Folks make no mistake there is no-one here taking shots at the Army/Navy girls and boys. The comments are based on the overall preparation for disasters etc plus where are the new [fantastically over rated????] MRH-90's bought at great cost by the Australian taxpayers for Her Majesty's ADF......they were supposed to be operational years ago....
Folks make no mistake there is no-one here taking shots at the Army/Navy girls and boys. The comments are based on the overall preparation for disasters etc plus where are the new [fantastically over rated????] MRH-90's bought at great cost by the Australian taxpayers for Her Majesty's ADF......they were supposed to be operational years ago....
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emegov
That is the point - they should have a NTM, even if it is 48 hours. Seems stupid to have a base full of capable assets that are not on a formal NTM for DACC.
And my point made earlier still stands:
despite them not having a notice to move
And my point made earlier still stands:
Did Oakey for example call the local councils (and their parent HQ) and say íf you ask through official channels we can have XX Blackhawks and XX Kiowas and a 412 ready in XX days'
HPT,
On stand down, such as Christmas, everyone is put on a recall list. They must give details of where they are and be contactable. There is a dedicated number who are on stdby to move within a certain time. As for why aren't all the assets ready to go, read reachers post. To have assets on a NTM they need to ready, maintenance signed off with hours to fly and capabilities ready to go. If you wish for the whole fleet to be that way then you had better, in the aviation side, cancel all other flying, operational included, for the, at least, last few months of the year to get these airframes ready, then listen to the bitching about having assets and aircrew sitting around doing jack ****.
Emergov's point on self mobilisation was that the personal went in off their own bat before receiving the recall, not that they were not on NTM. Undoubtedly I’ll bet personal that were not on NTM also went in.
As for calling the civilian authorities I would be very surprise if part of civil emergency procedure did not have SOP’s for the civilian authorities to contact the required people in an emergency. Even today if everyone start calling and asking do we come in and all senior, semi senior rank start contacting civilian authorities, “do you need us” it would turn into a shambles. The next compliant is why don’t the ADF/civilian authorities have a working plan, ...... they do.
TBM we have what we call a Sixty Minutes test. If we do/did something and sixty minutes got hold off it would they be able to make it look like a cock up. Launching a “new aircraft”, no matter when it should have been signed off, without being signed off is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately in this PC time and fix the blame not the fault, if someone had launched the MRH 90’s and we had lost one, particularly with fatalities, not only how would sixty minutes view it but you can bet there are members of the general public who would have kicked up a stink. You want your cake and be able to eat it, then you had better accept responsibility for doing so.
Out of thread. Is there an auto correct that would change cock up to dog up?
On stand down, such as Christmas, everyone is put on a recall list. They must give details of where they are and be contactable. There is a dedicated number who are on stdby to move within a certain time. As for why aren't all the assets ready to go, read reachers post. To have assets on a NTM they need to ready, maintenance signed off with hours to fly and capabilities ready to go. If you wish for the whole fleet to be that way then you had better, in the aviation side, cancel all other flying, operational included, for the, at least, last few months of the year to get these airframes ready, then listen to the bitching about having assets and aircrew sitting around doing jack ****.
Emergov's point on self mobilisation was that the personal went in off their own bat before receiving the recall, not that they were not on NTM. Undoubtedly I’ll bet personal that were not on NTM also went in.
As for calling the civilian authorities I would be very surprise if part of civil emergency procedure did not have SOP’s for the civilian authorities to contact the required people in an emergency. Even today if everyone start calling and asking do we come in and all senior, semi senior rank start contacting civilian authorities, “do you need us” it would turn into a shambles. The next compliant is why don’t the ADF/civilian authorities have a working plan, ...... they do.
TBM we have what we call a Sixty Minutes test. If we do/did something and sixty minutes got hold off it would they be able to make it look like a cock up. Launching a “new aircraft”, no matter when it should have been signed off, without being signed off is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately in this PC time and fix the blame not the fault, if someone had launched the MRH 90’s and we had lost one, particularly with fatalities, not only how would sixty minutes view it but you can bet there are members of the general public who would have kicked up a stink. You want your cake and be able to eat it, then you had better accept responsibility for doing so.
Out of thread. Is there an auto correct that would change cock up to dog up?
yet more delays!
Fraser says that Australian Aerospace is closely cooperating with the DMO to try and overcome the delays, which are likely to add six months to service delivery for the Army.
The prime contractor “has some initiatives on offer that we will take to try to restore the rate of effort to what it should be in order to catch up. But at this point in time we are behind schedule for army.”
The first Army operational capability was scheduled to comprise a deployable troop of four aircraft by April 2011.
“At the moment we are looking at a September or October [2011] timeframe. We will take as much action as we can to recover that, but that is where it currently sits, due to the low rate of effort.”
Fraser says that Australian Aerospace is closely cooperating with the DMO to try and overcome the delays, which are likely to add six months to service delivery for the Army.
The prime contractor “has some initiatives on offer that we will take to try to restore the rate of effort to what it should be in order to catch up. But at this point in time we are behind schedule for army.”
The first Army operational capability was scheduled to comprise a deployable troop of four aircraft by April 2011.
“At the moment we are looking at a September or October [2011] timeframe. We will take as much action as we can to recover that, but that is where it currently sits, due to the low rate of effort.”