New Falklands War Brewing
There is a nice comment on a Palestinian website about self determination, part of which I have copied below:
There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law..... It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.
There is a recognised right to self-determination in international law..... It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.
As someone whose father served in the Falklands I'm no apologist for the Argentinians, but I would say their position is that those living on the islands now are not native to the islands and therefore not subject to the same rights of self-determination that would normally apply.
Like I said though, I'm no apologist and fully subscribe to the notion that, as the Argentines aren't native to South America themselves, they should be careful when throwing colonial stones.
Last edited by melmothtw; 3rd Jan 2013 at 09:50.
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I think in reality the UK (& Netherlands) gave up up enormous amounts of territory after 1945. Did the HKG residents get an fair vote in recognition of their right to self-determination under international law? Maybe sent some ships to scare the Chinese?
Falkland Islands 3.000 inhabitants, Hong Kong: 6.000.000+. Economic value and history; why even compare.. turned over to the Chinese 15 yrs after the Falklands..
Of course we should protect the rights of people. And does the amount of people involved really matter in keeping up those rights? Well, yes actually.
We don't want (more) small minorities setting the world on fire everywhere. It's irresponsible.
Falkland Islands 3.000 inhabitants, Hong Kong: 6.000.000+. Economic value and history; why even compare.. turned over to the Chinese 15 yrs after the Falklands..
Of course we should protect the rights of people. And does the amount of people involved really matter in keeping up those rights? Well, yes actually.
We don't want (more) small minorities setting the world on fire everywhere. It's irresponsible.
Last edited by keesje; 3rd Jan 2013 at 13:42. Reason: addition.
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Keesje,
There will always be examples of where something has happened differently, but that doesn't mean that it was right.
A simple question for you though; do you, or do you not, believe that the Falkland Islanders have the right to self determination?
A more complicated follow on question on the assumption that you do not believe they have the right to determine their own futures; why not?
There will always be examples of where something has happened differently, but that doesn't mean that it was right.
A simple question for you though; do you, or do you not, believe that the Falkland Islanders have the right to self determination?
A more complicated follow on question on the assumption that you do not believe they have the right to determine their own futures; why not?
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what do you mean "not native to the Falkland Islands"???
When do people become "natives"??
The Falklands have been British for longer than Texas has been part of the USA and is approx the same age as Belgium
What I find funny is that no Argentinians (over 50% of whose ancestors arrived post 1945) want to go to the bloody place (and I don't blame them) - it's all political flim-flam
When do people become "natives"??
The Falklands have been British for longer than Texas has been part of the USA and is approx the same age as Belgium
What I find funny is that no Argentinians (over 50% of whose ancestors arrived post 1945) want to go to the bloody place (and I don't blame them) - it's all political flim-flam
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And who is native if not us? The islands were uninhabited and there were no indigenous people there. Many seafaring nations had a go at settling the islands. We were the only ones who made a success of it. The Argie argument about colonialism is so tangled up in hypocrisy that it cannot be taken seriously. After the Argies failed to accept international law and diplomacy, the matter of sovereignty was settled militarily, and yet they still beat their chest over it.
The Falklands have been British for longer than Texas has been part of the USA and is approx the same age as Belgium
What I find funny is that no Argentinians (over 50% of whose ancestors arrived post 1945) want to go to the bloody place (and I don't blame them) - it's all political flim-flam
What I find funny is that no Argentinians (over 50% of whose ancestors arrived post 1945) want to go to the bloody place (and I don't blame them) - it's all political flim-flam
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I found this very interesting, especially the table showing ownership through the ages::
fleet street fox: Dear Argentina...
There is an interesting comment too that Argentina didn't come into existence until 29 years AFTER the UK took ownership of the FI.
regards
HH93
fleet street fox: Dear Argentina...
There is an interesting comment too that Argentina didn't come into existence until 29 years AFTER the UK took ownership of the FI.
regards
HH93
Last edited by howiehowie93; 3rd Jan 2013 at 16:34.
I have never seen any evidence of Argentineans being ejected from the islands by force apart from in 1982 - which was thoroughly deserved.
The vote in March will reveal what we already know about about the islanders' wishes, so self-determination law will stand. End of story.
If there are any doubts, we can reinforce the islands with all three services. That will have a number of useful effects. For one thing it will tie up a lot of equipment and manpower, showing that it is in-use post-AFG and, therefore, not available for scrapping. For another it would provide great training opportunities (as the place has since 1982) and require us to maintain some sort of logistics capability. It could also provide the bonus of of a really good punch-up that would to serve to remind their crazy president that she has even less chance than Leopoldo Galtieri of taking our territory by force. Oh, and it would mean that we wouldn't need to be so concerned that we scrapped Harrier.
Bring it on! I'll even turn up for my reserve commitment voluntarily to help out. Hey, that would make me a serving member again so I can stay on PPRuNe!!!
The vote in March will reveal what we already know about about the islanders' wishes, so self-determination law will stand. End of story.
If there are any doubts, we can reinforce the islands with all three services. That will have a number of useful effects. For one thing it will tie up a lot of equipment and manpower, showing that it is in-use post-AFG and, therefore, not available for scrapping. For another it would provide great training opportunities (as the place has since 1982) and require us to maintain some sort of logistics capability. It could also provide the bonus of of a really good punch-up that would to serve to remind their crazy president that she has even less chance than Leopoldo Galtieri of taking our territory by force. Oh, and it would mean that we wouldn't need to be so concerned that we scrapped Harrier.
Bring it on! I'll even turn up for my reserve commitment voluntarily to help out. Hey, that would make me a serving member again so I can stay on PPRuNe!!!
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From the BBC:
BBC News - UK prime minister rebuffs Argentina over Falklands
We won't reclaim the Sebald Islands. I promise.
Our correspondent said there was now a "diplomatic stand off" because Argentina's view is that the referendum is illegitimate and will have no bearing on their claim because they see the islanders as occupiers, rather than residents.
Ms Fernandez says her letter is published on the same date - 3 January - when, 180 years ago: "Argentina was forcibly stripped of the Malvinas Islands, which are situated 14,000 km (8,700 miles) away from London".
She goes on: "The Argentines on the Islands were expelled by the Royal Navy and the United Kingdom subsequently began a population implantation process similar to that applied to other territories under colonial rule.
"Since then, Britain, the colonial power, has refused to return the territories to the Argentine Republic, thus preventing it from restoring its territorial integrity."
In her final paragraph, she ends: "In the name of the Argentine people, I reiterate our invitation for us to abide by the resolutions of the United Nations."
The Falkland Islands has a population of around 3,000 people
Argentina says it inherited ownership of the islands from Spain, arguing that British colonists occupied the islands by force in 1833 and expelled settlers, violating Argentina's territorial integrity.
Ms Fernandez says her letter is published on the same date - 3 January - when, 180 years ago: "Argentina was forcibly stripped of the Malvinas Islands, which are situated 14,000 km (8,700 miles) away from London".
She goes on: "The Argentines on the Islands were expelled by the Royal Navy and the United Kingdom subsequently began a population implantation process similar to that applied to other territories under colonial rule.
"Since then, Britain, the colonial power, has refused to return the territories to the Argentine Republic, thus preventing it from restoring its territorial integrity."
In her final paragraph, she ends: "In the name of the Argentine people, I reiterate our invitation for us to abide by the resolutions of the United Nations."
The Falkland Islands has a population of around 3,000 people
Argentina says it inherited ownership of the islands from Spain, arguing that British colonists occupied the islands by force in 1833 and expelled settlers, violating Argentina's territorial integrity.
We won't reclaim the Sebald Islands. I promise.
Last edited by keesje; 3rd Jan 2013 at 18:56.
As Heathrow Harry said, Argentina's best option is to develop a strategy that will make it more attractive in the long-term for the Falklanders to adopt allegiance to Argentina. There was a recent example (much feted in Argentina) of a Falklander who adopted Argentine citizenship, because he thought it the best long term option for his children. If Argentina were to concentrate on consolidating its sporadic progress to becoming a stable, prosperous and respected democracy then perhaps more FIs would take the same view. It would be considerably cheaper for Argentina to spend on incentives for FIs to become Argentine (eg fund local schooling, health care to compete with UK provision, and offer free tertiary education and healthcare on the mainland) than spending on a military solution.
Bear in mind, also, that the bellicose and populist statements of Kirchner are not universally applauded in Argentina. I'm from an Anglo-Argentine family, and even have second-cousins serving in the Argentine military - they and most of their acquaintances are appalled at Kirchner's populist pronouncements blatantly aimed at voters who are the Argentine equivalent of "The Sun" readers in the UK. Unfortunately there are a higher proportion of them over there than in UK.
Bear in mind, also, that the bellicose and populist statements of Kirchner are not universally applauded in Argentina. I'm from an Anglo-Argentine family, and even have second-cousins serving in the Argentine military - they and most of their acquaintances are appalled at Kirchner's populist pronouncements blatantly aimed at voters who are the Argentine equivalent of "The Sun" readers in the UK. Unfortunately there are a higher proportion of them over there than in UK.
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Bookies Falklands : Latest Odds 03/01/13
Outcome of Referendum
Yes (Remain in British Sovereignty) 1/500
No (Change from British Sovereignty) 25/1
Number of votes against British Sovereignty
Under 20.5 5/6
Over 20.5 5/6
Cameron & Kirchner to have official bilateral meeting in 2013 25/1
Cameron to visit The Falklands in 2013 12/1
Lionel Messi to make a demand in 2013 that the Falklands come under Argentinian Sovereignty 25/1
Simples
PS Courtney no need to strap on your leg restraints just yet
Outcome of Referendum
Yes (Remain in British Sovereignty) 1/500
No (Change from British Sovereignty) 25/1
Number of votes against British Sovereignty
Under 20.5 5/6
Over 20.5 5/6
Cameron & Kirchner to have official bilateral meeting in 2013 25/1
Cameron to visit The Falklands in 2013 12/1
Lionel Messi to make a demand in 2013 that the Falklands come under Argentinian Sovereignty 25/1
Simples
PS Courtney no need to strap on your leg restraints just yet
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 3rd Jan 2013 at 19:47.
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Few bombers, aircraft carriers and Harriers around these days..
Luckely Argentine hardly spends any money on defense these days and the air fleet is a flying museum.
Luckely Argentine hardly spends any money on defense these days and the air fleet is a flying museum.
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keesje, it's wrong to compare Hong Kong with the Falklands. UK was ceded some of the territory in perpetuity at the time of the Opium Wars. We then leased further land for 100 years. It wasn't feasible to carry on with HK whilst handing the leased land back. PS Kirchner does remind me of a brunette Miss Piggy !
Last edited by yotty; 4th Jan 2013 at 06:14. Reason: To include a completely inappropriate comment about the Argies President.
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What if people believe British colonists occupied the islands by force in 1833 and expelled settlers and began a population implantation process on a lonely pair of cold islands, 8700Nm from London? (see BBC article)
The people (or more importantly, the media
) from USA, China, Brazil and Russia could think it's nothing but a belated farfetched neo-colonial war..
The holy rights of 3000 (!?) "implantated" fully UK government dependent people seems constructed. Get real. What about the millions Kurds, Armenians, Basques, Palestinians, Tibet..
.. Playing the devils advocate here
But IMO better ask the USA and Brazil first how they think about it. Little chance of new old glory I'm afraid.
The people (or more importantly, the media
) from USA, China, Brazil and Russia could think it's nothing but a belated farfetched neo-colonial war..The holy rights of 3000 (!?) "implantated" fully UK government dependent people seems constructed. Get real. What about the millions Kurds, Armenians, Basques, Palestinians, Tibet..
.. Playing the devils advocate here
But IMO better ask the USA and Brazil first how they think about it. Little chance of new old glory I'm afraid.
Bloody scandanavians Invading our country. How long shall we go back? It's the regurgitation on history that stops us all moving forward. Humans never really leave the playground we just get bigger toys.
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Trim Stab wrote:- "Argentina's best option is to develop a strategy that will make it more attractive in the long-term for the Falklanders to adopt allegiance to Argentina. There was a recent example (much feted in Argentina) of a Falklander who adopted Argentine citizenship, because he thought it the best long term option for his children. If Argentina were to concentrate on consolidating its sporadic progress to becoming a stable, prosperous and respected democracy then perhaps more FIs would take the same view. It would be considerably cheaper for Argentina to spend on incentives for FIs to become Argentine (eg fund local schooling, health care to compete with UK provision, and offer free tertiary education and healthcare on the mainland) than spending on a military solution."
I believe that WAS the their policy pre- about 1978 - treat them FI decently, offer some incentives like decent University education cheaply etc etc and just wait - then it all went pear shaped..............
I believe that WAS the their policy pre- about 1978 - treat them FI decently, offer some incentives like decent University education cheaply etc etc and just wait - then it all went pear shaped..............
