Greatest ever blunder in the history of the UK aircraft industry?
Jetex_Jim
"As Lenin put it, 'The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with."
He was wrong, and so are you.
"As Lenin put it, 'The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with."
He was wrong, and so are you.
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"As Lenin put it, 'The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with."
He was wrong, and so are you.
He was wrong, and so are you.
The Soviet Union may be gone but, as my previous reference indicates, capitalism is still happy to exchange technology for short term profits.
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From the NYT article
"For the most part, Western aviation executives say the Chinese are simply too far behind in both civilian and military airplane technology to cause any real fears anytime soon"
Interesting to say the least.
How many of these "Western aviation executives" will be scrambling to catch up and competing with them in 5 years time ?
.
"For the most part, Western aviation executives say the Chinese are simply too far behind in both civilian and military airplane technology to cause any real fears anytime soon"
Interesting to say the least.
How many of these "Western aviation executives" will be scrambling to catch up and competing with them in 5 years time ?
.
Last edited by 500N; 3rd Jul 2011 at 12:44.
"For the most part, Western aviation executives say the Chinese are simply too far behind in both civilian and military airplane technology to cause any real fears anytime soon"
*And no, I don't mean "Cor, Lord Astor, ain't you a naughty boy!"
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Nene/Derwent to USSR: see my #166.
UK also bartered various aeroplanes, good and not so, for Peron-Fascist Argentina's beef. We were hungry and cold in 1946/47, so could not be picky about customers. Massey-Ferguson tractors, Morris Minors, Cossor/EKCO brown goods were not yet ready to burst on the world export scene. Great hopes were placed on Aero, especially turbines, to earn the $ we needed to survive. See the Brabazon Committee suite of civil Types.
For me, the 1946/47 turbine blunder was not this, but was Cabinet's 7/47 denial of a modest $ commitment to permit Bristol to licence-build L-849 Constellation, initially with Centaurus, then Theseus turboprop.
UK also bartered various aeroplanes, good and not so, for Peron-Fascist Argentina's beef. We were hungry and cold in 1946/47, so could not be picky about customers. Massey-Ferguson tractors, Morris Minors, Cossor/EKCO brown goods were not yet ready to burst on the world export scene. Great hopes were placed on Aero, especially turbines, to earn the $ we needed to survive. See the Brabazon Committee suite of civil Types.
For me, the 1946/47 turbine blunder was not this, but was Cabinet's 7/47 denial of a modest $ commitment to permit Bristol to licence-build L-849 Constellation, initially with Centaurus, then Theseus turboprop.
etsd0001
On my first visit to China in 1972
The Chinese were having trouble with the TBO of the Klimov copies so they asked Rolls Royce to send out a team to assist them. They brought out their original drawings of the Nene and put various things right.
Apparantly they stung the Chinese a packet for assisting them to fix illegal copies.
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Hooker does mention that the Chinese had problems with their WP-7 military engine turbine blades. The fir-tree root was prone to cracking that led to the blade(s) departing the engine. They also had a problem with combustion chamber cracking due to the various thicknesses of metal used resulting in different rates of cooling when the power was reduced. The cracks would finally liberate chunks of material that would pass through the turbine.
RR sent them detailed drawings of the Spey turbine fir-tree root on the basis that they had lots of Speys in their Tridents so they already had the info if they cared to look. It would appear however that civilian aviation & military aviation were kept in separate 'boxes' and never were the twain to meet.
With regard to the combustion chamber problem, Hooker explained what the cause of the problem was and how it could be solved by the use of thicker material and keyhole slots cut in to the material. Once again he says they already had the answer if they had only bothered to look at the Russian copies of the the Nenes they had
RR sent them detailed drawings of the Spey turbine fir-tree root on the basis that they had lots of Speys in their Tridents so they already had the info if they cared to look. It would appear however that civilian aviation & military aviation were kept in separate 'boxes' and never were the twain to meet.
With regard to the combustion chamber problem, Hooker explained what the cause of the problem was and how it could be solved by the use of thicker material and keyhole slots cut in to the material. Once again he says they already had the answer if they had only bothered to look at the Russian copies of the the Nenes they had
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From etsd0001 post earlier
" They even copied the mistakes!'"
Reminds me of a story about the Spanish firearms trade who copied the Purdey Sidelock Shotgun, they had purchased a slightly used one which of course was slightly worn so the wear was also copied. I believe they eventually figured to buy a new one and copy that.
" They even copied the mistakes!'"
Reminds me of a story about the Spanish firearms trade who copied the Purdey Sidelock Shotgun, they had purchased a slightly used one which of course was slightly worn so the wear was also copied. I believe they eventually figured to buy a new one and copy that.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Load of Bull really.
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The Blowfly?
Received this just the other day from an old friend, and thought it appropro.
The Blowfly: Gone But Not Forgotten.
It has been almost a half-century since the first Gormley-Bulsh Blowfly rolled out of a small, white frame factory in Aldershot, England. Built at the request of the Italian Army, it was intended for use as a defensive weapon against German observation balloon attacks.
The Gormly-Bulsh people were well known automobile manufacturers, but had no experience in the new-born aviation industry. This led to one of the most unusual features of the Blowfly--its fourspeed transmission (one speed in reverse). The company's chief engineer, Sir lan Hickey (later to become Mr. lan Hickey), had proceeded along familiar automotive design concepts; his inclusion of the transmission in the airframe design was not discovered until the prototype had already been completed. As the Italians were most anxious to combat the threat of the German balloons, Gormly-Bulsh decided to go ahead with Hickey's original design. These transmissions used straight-cut, nonsychromesh gears, necessitating additional flight instruction in double clutching.
Vee belts ran from the transmission pulley to the propeller assembly, mounted above the radiator, to provide the final drive. Another of Hickey's mechanical innovations was the use of burled walnut valves. These beautiful, hand-turned valves gave the Blowfly a distinctive and not unpleasant castanet-like chatter at idle. The presence of the transmission enabled the designers to employ the standard automotive cranking system in starting the engine. After the engine had been started, the clutch was engaged and the plane could be taxied in low gear, via a steerable tailwheel. Lubrication was by a rather primitive splash system which caused the engine to smoke badly whenever it was operated at any speed over 100 rpm.
When compared with other aircraft of the day, the Blowfly's performance was not spectacular. Its top speed of 87 mph (in top gear) was found to be inadequate, especially when coupled with the somewhat severe glide ratio of 3:1. The operational ceiling of 420 feet, however, provided to be of some defensive value: German antiaircraft gunners were reluctant to use explosive shells at this low altitude for fear of causing casualties on the ground.
The theoretical range of 200 miles was never reached under actual flight conditions as the valves tended to char well before this distance could be achieved. Armament consisted of two Savage single-shot .22 caliber rifles --- manually loaded and fired through the propeller. The engine turned about 120 rpm, eliminating the need for the pilot to worry about hitting his own prop. A three-pronged grappling iron was supplied but there is no recorded instance of its use.
Instrumentation consisted of a tachometer that was redlined at 200 rpm and a barometer/altimeter of the ever popular "Witch-and-Children-in-the-Cottage" model. Peak altitude was indicated when the witch came all the way out of the cottage. An oil temperature gauge was installed in the prototype but as the oil rarely remained in the engine long enough to become very hot, it was felt that this instrument served no real purpose; it was not included on the production model.
The three-cylinder, water-cooled, in-line engine was the same the company had been using in its fantastically unsuccessful two passenger drophead coupe, the Bolide. The engine was rated at 26 bhp, but again, this figure was never actually reached in the production engines because of various material limitations including the fact that the valves had a tendency to splinter at high revs. Many components of the Bolide automobile were used in the Blowfly; the muffler, radiator, windshield, horn, and hood ornament.
An interesting aside to the history of aircraft development was recorded on October 12, 1915, when a Blowfly was used in the first successful test of a phonograph in an airplane. The failure of the Royal Signal Corps to pursue this line of research further was instrumental in assuring radio's early domination of aircraft communications.
By the end of the war, a total of seven Blowflys had been built at the Aldershot plant, two of these actually being delivered to the Italians.
Only one of these planes was ever involved in actual combat. On November 9, 1917, Lt. Giuseppe Imbroglio, a member of the four man Dolce Far Niente squadron, was flying a patrol mission, his first in a Blowfly. He reported that while flying over the Tolmino-Caporetto Sector north of the Bainsizza Plateau at an altitude of 350 feet, he was attacked by a German observation balloon. What ensued was to be the longest recorded dogfight between a captive balloon and an airplane. After a number of furious onslaughts, the Blowfly was brought down when it was hit by a map case thrown by the German observer. Lieutenant Imbroglio was able by skillful downshifting to bring his ship to a relatively safe landing, but records captured during the latter stages of the war indicated that the German observer was badly shaken in the encounter and was sent back to Berlin for R&R.
Even though Imbroglio's was the only Blowfly involved in combat, the Germans claimed the destruction of 27 of the planes! It was later determined that this error was due to the plane's smoky lube system: What the Germans had seen was the same Blowfly 27 different times trailing a smoke cloud as it cruised toward its home base.
It is unfortunate that no Blowfly has survived. The last known example saw some use in 1923 after having been converted to a crop duster, but as the oil smoke tended to damage the crops it was shortly taken out of service. The engineering team responsible for the design and production of the Blowfly remained neutral during World War II at the urging of the British Government, so there was no chance for development there. The last Blowfly was seen in late 1956 filled with helium, being used to promote the opening of a supermarket in Grirnsby. An ironical use of a machine designed to be the scourge of the balloon! On this same occasion, a sudden squall caused the mooring lines to the floating Blowfly to part and the sole survivor of the breed was seen drifting out over the North Sea, where, presumably it finally fell.
One of my most cherished possessions is a polished mahogany gearshift knob embossed with the famous Gormly-Bulsh emblem. A silent memento of the gone but not forgotten Blowfly.
------
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Engaging thread.
GB
The Blowfly: Gone But Not Forgotten.
It has been almost a half-century since the first Gormley-Bulsh Blowfly rolled out of a small, white frame factory in Aldershot, England. Built at the request of the Italian Army, it was intended for use as a defensive weapon against German observation balloon attacks.
The Gormly-Bulsh people were well known automobile manufacturers, but had no experience in the new-born aviation industry. This led to one of the most unusual features of the Blowfly--its fourspeed transmission (one speed in reverse). The company's chief engineer, Sir lan Hickey (later to become Mr. lan Hickey), had proceeded along familiar automotive design concepts; his inclusion of the transmission in the airframe design was not discovered until the prototype had already been completed. As the Italians were most anxious to combat the threat of the German balloons, Gormly-Bulsh decided to go ahead with Hickey's original design. These transmissions used straight-cut, nonsychromesh gears, necessitating additional flight instruction in double clutching.
Vee belts ran from the transmission pulley to the propeller assembly, mounted above the radiator, to provide the final drive. Another of Hickey's mechanical innovations was the use of burled walnut valves. These beautiful, hand-turned valves gave the Blowfly a distinctive and not unpleasant castanet-like chatter at idle. The presence of the transmission enabled the designers to employ the standard automotive cranking system in starting the engine. After the engine had been started, the clutch was engaged and the plane could be taxied in low gear, via a steerable tailwheel. Lubrication was by a rather primitive splash system which caused the engine to smoke badly whenever it was operated at any speed over 100 rpm.
When compared with other aircraft of the day, the Blowfly's performance was not spectacular. Its top speed of 87 mph (in top gear) was found to be inadequate, especially when coupled with the somewhat severe glide ratio of 3:1. The operational ceiling of 420 feet, however, provided to be of some defensive value: German antiaircraft gunners were reluctant to use explosive shells at this low altitude for fear of causing casualties on the ground.
The theoretical range of 200 miles was never reached under actual flight conditions as the valves tended to char well before this distance could be achieved. Armament consisted of two Savage single-shot .22 caliber rifles --- manually loaded and fired through the propeller. The engine turned about 120 rpm, eliminating the need for the pilot to worry about hitting his own prop. A three-pronged grappling iron was supplied but there is no recorded instance of its use.
Instrumentation consisted of a tachometer that was redlined at 200 rpm and a barometer/altimeter of the ever popular "Witch-and-Children-in-the-Cottage" model. Peak altitude was indicated when the witch came all the way out of the cottage. An oil temperature gauge was installed in the prototype but as the oil rarely remained in the engine long enough to become very hot, it was felt that this instrument served no real purpose; it was not included on the production model.
The three-cylinder, water-cooled, in-line engine was the same the company had been using in its fantastically unsuccessful two passenger drophead coupe, the Bolide. The engine was rated at 26 bhp, but again, this figure was never actually reached in the production engines because of various material limitations including the fact that the valves had a tendency to splinter at high revs. Many components of the Bolide automobile were used in the Blowfly; the muffler, radiator, windshield, horn, and hood ornament.
An interesting aside to the history of aircraft development was recorded on October 12, 1915, when a Blowfly was used in the first successful test of a phonograph in an airplane. The failure of the Royal Signal Corps to pursue this line of research further was instrumental in assuring radio's early domination of aircraft communications.
By the end of the war, a total of seven Blowflys had been built at the Aldershot plant, two of these actually being delivered to the Italians.
Only one of these planes was ever involved in actual combat. On November 9, 1917, Lt. Giuseppe Imbroglio, a member of the four man Dolce Far Niente squadron, was flying a patrol mission, his first in a Blowfly. He reported that while flying over the Tolmino-Caporetto Sector north of the Bainsizza Plateau at an altitude of 350 feet, he was attacked by a German observation balloon. What ensued was to be the longest recorded dogfight between a captive balloon and an airplane. After a number of furious onslaughts, the Blowfly was brought down when it was hit by a map case thrown by the German observer. Lieutenant Imbroglio was able by skillful downshifting to bring his ship to a relatively safe landing, but records captured during the latter stages of the war indicated that the German observer was badly shaken in the encounter and was sent back to Berlin for R&R.
Even though Imbroglio's was the only Blowfly involved in combat, the Germans claimed the destruction of 27 of the planes! It was later determined that this error was due to the plane's smoky lube system: What the Germans had seen was the same Blowfly 27 different times trailing a smoke cloud as it cruised toward its home base.
It is unfortunate that no Blowfly has survived. The last known example saw some use in 1923 after having been converted to a crop duster, but as the oil smoke tended to damage the crops it was shortly taken out of service. The engineering team responsible for the design and production of the Blowfly remained neutral during World War II at the urging of the British Government, so there was no chance for development there. The last Blowfly was seen in late 1956 filled with helium, being used to promote the opening of a supermarket in Grirnsby. An ironical use of a machine designed to be the scourge of the balloon! On this same occasion, a sudden squall caused the mooring lines to the floating Blowfly to part and the sole survivor of the breed was seen drifting out over the North Sea, where, presumably it finally fell.
One of my most cherished possessions is a polished mahogany gearshift knob embossed with the famous Gormly-Bulsh emblem. A silent memento of the gone but not forgotten Blowfly.
------
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Engaging thread.
GB
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Originally Posted by 500N
How many of these "Western aviation executives" will be scrambling to catch up and competing with them in 5 years time ?
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Graybeard
As the last surviving afficionado & custodian of the cherished memory of that paragon of British aircraft design, the Wiggins Aerodyne, I doff my virtual cap to a fellow traveller.
Had I not just spent a most enjoyable evening in a vineyard restaurant, I would feel better able to take you to task on several claims that you make regarding that infamous deathtrap, the Gormley-Bulsh Blowfly; the dreadful performance of this contraption is exemplified by the fact that it boasted not an Airspeed Indicator, but a calendar.
When this grape-induced mist has departed, I shall expand my case further; prepare yourself, Sir.
HB
Had I not just spent a most enjoyable evening in a vineyard restaurant, I would feel better able to take you to task on several claims that you make regarding that infamous deathtrap, the Gormley-Bulsh Blowfly; the dreadful performance of this contraption is exemplified by the fact that it boasted not an Airspeed Indicator, but a calendar.
When this grape-induced mist has departed, I shall expand my case further; prepare yourself, Sir.
HB
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Further to my post above re ""For the most part, Western aviation executives say the Chinese are simply too far behind in both civilian and military airplane technology to cause any real fears anytime soon"
Thought this might be of interest to forum members with a fair emphasis on China and how fast they move. I liked this sentence "But the speed at which they have been developed".
Global race on to match U.S. drone capabilities - The Washington Post
This is the Videolink from the article
Global race on to match U.S. drone capabilities - The Washington Post
Thought this might be of interest to forum members with a fair emphasis on China and how fast they move. I liked this sentence "But the speed at which they have been developed".
Global race on to match U.S. drone capabilities - The Washington Post
This is the Videolink from the article
Global race on to match U.S. drone capabilities - The Washington Post
Jetex_Jim,
"And you justify this assertion exactly how?"
Well, you see, the very basis of Marxist-Leninist theory was that capitalism was a self destructive force and that eventually pressures of capital and consumerism, allied to inflation and taxation, would deliver the capitalist world into the communists arms. All they had to do was wait.
As history showed, the exact opposite occurred.
So, Lenin's claim that he would take the capitalists rope they sold him and hang them with it, was simply wrong.
"And you justify this assertion exactly how?"
Well, you see, the very basis of Marxist-Leninist theory was that capitalism was a self destructive force and that eventually pressures of capital and consumerism, allied to inflation and taxation, would deliver the capitalist world into the communists arms. All they had to do was wait.
As history showed, the exact opposite occurred.
So, Lenin's claim that he would take the capitalists rope they sold him and hang them with it, was simply wrong.
