Time to bin the Red Arrows
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The Reds will continue to be put up as a savings option in each Planning Round, safe in the knowledge that they will not be taken.
Just like HMY BRITANNIA!
Just like HMY BRITANNIA!
The Red arrows will continue until the Hawk goes out of service.
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Winco,
Thanks for your full and concise answer and I admit I wasn't really interested in the figures, we all know you can't make money displaying a military team, it would be nice if you could.
I also admit you're right about the money saved not being used for our servicemen and women, lets face it, how many times did we actually cut our navy to pay for the carriers, only to be told that we had to lose something in the SDSR to pay for them again!
The point is that despite wanting to keep the best display team in the world, there comes a time when the money just isn't available any more. I've seen (from my lowly vantage point) the difficulty getting budget holders to pay for something they consider "not theirs", so I can see what you mean about the money saved going into something else rather than the military. They've picked the MoD pocket in the past to fund all sorts of civvy related stuff so a few million quid from the Reds would soon disappear. None of that means the Reds shouldn't be got rid of, rather, it means that the only thing saving the Reds is emotion and flag waving, and that will only get you so far (ask the crew of the Ark).
When it finally happens and you hear the next day about a government incentive to help Guinea Pig breeders fight stress by providing respite breaks to Bermuda; just remember, you called it!
Cheers
Thanks for your full and concise answer and I admit I wasn't really interested in the figures, we all know you can't make money displaying a military team, it would be nice if you could.
I also admit you're right about the money saved not being used for our servicemen and women, lets face it, how many times did we actually cut our navy to pay for the carriers, only to be told that we had to lose something in the SDSR to pay for them again!
The point is that despite wanting to keep the best display team in the world, there comes a time when the money just isn't available any more. I've seen (from my lowly vantage point) the difficulty getting budget holders to pay for something they consider "not theirs", so I can see what you mean about the money saved going into something else rather than the military. They've picked the MoD pocket in the past to fund all sorts of civvy related stuff so a few million quid from the Reds would soon disappear. None of that means the Reds shouldn't be got rid of, rather, it means that the only thing saving the Reds is emotion and flag waving, and that will only get you so far (ask the crew of the Ark).
When it finally happens and you hear the next day about a government incentive to help Guinea Pig breeders fight stress by providing respite breaks to Bermuda; just remember, you called it!
Cheers
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Here's an idea for you....
Keep the Reds, but bin the frame they are currently zooming around in and give them the Harriers instead, there's a few spare now after all...
Result...
1. A whole new dimension to the display ... up 'n' down as well as just zooming around (even though they do it so well).
2. Keeps the Harrier in service and skills current which is no bad thing, you never know when an aircraft with it's unique abilities could be needed again in anger.
3. Less skill fade to cause upsets when the ships finally (if ever) come into service.
Keep the Reds, but bin the frame they are currently zooming around in and give them the Harriers instead, there's a few spare now after all...
Result...
1. A whole new dimension to the display ... up 'n' down as well as just zooming around (even though they do it so well).
2. Keeps the Harrier in service and skills current which is no bad thing, you never know when an aircraft with it's unique abilities could be needed again in anger.
3. Less skill fade to cause upsets when the ships finally (if ever) come into service.
I wish some would stop going on about the reds being a recruitment tool. We don't need to recruit. There are currently at least 250 people applying for each pilot post. And the most pertinent point abutting that is that we currently have a large surfeit of pilots.
Being a 20 year RAF man I'm loathe to see the reds go, but if we're truly going to be down to single figures in FJ squadron numbers, then I'm sorry but they have to go. We can't afford a squadron of FJ who are there to bolster virtually non existent recruitment, non supportive industry, or good old fasioned PR. The PR role is doing us no good anyway, as argued in previous posts.
Herc-U-Lease: If you think a tight diamond 9 formation has the likes of say, Jong Il or Mugabe quaking in their boots, with nothing offensive to back it up, then you live on a different planet mate. The only formation they'd be afraid of is a wing of armed bombers overflying their capital, and we lost that capability a long time ago. Even then, these nutcases don't necessarily respect what you have. Nutcase is nutcase. Look at what North Korea are up to despite what the US are deploying in the region. You cannot face up to despots with a red painted flying circus.
Being a 20 year RAF man I'm loathe to see the reds go, but if we're truly going to be down to single figures in FJ squadron numbers, then I'm sorry but they have to go. We can't afford a squadron of FJ who are there to bolster virtually non existent recruitment, non supportive industry, or good old fasioned PR. The PR role is doing us no good anyway, as argued in previous posts.
Herc-U-Lease: If you think a tight diamond 9 formation has the likes of say, Jong Il or Mugabe quaking in their boots, with nothing offensive to back it up, then you live on a different planet mate. The only formation they'd be afraid of is a wing of armed bombers overflying their capital, and we lost that capability a long time ago. Even then, these nutcases don't necessarily respect what you have. Nutcase is nutcase. Look at what North Korea are up to despite what the US are deploying in the region. You cannot face up to despots with a red painted flying circus.
Hey Laarbruch 72, don't forget that they keep the inflatable Red Arrow Hawk ballon business going! That's got to be worth something, look at how many young shavers race around at airshows, in all weathers, wielding a blow read arrow. You wouldn't deny them now... would you!?
FB
FB
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I think we all agree that getting rid of the Arrows will make zero difference to the guys and girls on the front line, or indeed anywhere else in our Armed Services. It will simply enable to government to say that they have saved another few million pounds and fund another crazy idea to save the Barking Toad or whatever (sorry - Derek & Clive!)
And whilst I can see that getting rid of them might embarrass the government significantly (or at least should do), that is not the way to do it. Once they have gone, that's it, they are gone for ever! Which is one of the reasons why I continually groan on about our VSOs doing and saying absolutely nothing in public about the cuts.
Has anyone on PPrune heard a single RAF VSO stand up in public and critisised the decision to get rid of Nimrod? or Harrier? or even made a faintest public statement about our Forces being at breaking point because of continuous cuts??
The answer is NO. The VSO's have done and said nothing at all, and it is for that reason I believe that Joe Public thinks all is well, certainly with the RAF. My colleagues in the civilian aviation world continually ask why the RAF doesn't have any leaders with ba££s enough to tell the public how it really is, and I think that is our biggest problem.
Getting rid of the Arrows will of course save money, but it will be negligeable in the overall scheme of things. It might embarrass the government for about half a second - but no more. If they are happy to get rid of the Ark, then they will have no shame or concern about binning anything frankly, including the Arrows. I suspect that even they might appreciate however, that getting rid of them will effectively achieve nothing.
And whilst I can see that getting rid of them might embarrass the government significantly (or at least should do), that is not the way to do it. Once they have gone, that's it, they are gone for ever! Which is one of the reasons why I continually groan on about our VSOs doing and saying absolutely nothing in public about the cuts.
Has anyone on PPrune heard a single RAF VSO stand up in public and critisised the decision to get rid of Nimrod? or Harrier? or even made a faintest public statement about our Forces being at breaking point because of continuous cuts??
The answer is NO. The VSO's have done and said nothing at all, and it is for that reason I believe that Joe Public thinks all is well, certainly with the RAF. My colleagues in the civilian aviation world continually ask why the RAF doesn't have any leaders with ba££s enough to tell the public how it really is, and I think that is our biggest problem.
Getting rid of the Arrows will of course save money, but it will be negligeable in the overall scheme of things. It might embarrass the government for about half a second - but no more. If they are happy to get rid of the Ark, then they will have no shame or concern about binning anything frankly, including the Arrows. I suspect that even they might appreciate however, that getting rid of them will effectively achieve nothing.
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Problem is that VSOs are not allowed to get involved in politics, and questioning a political decision would be just that. So they're "fighting" with both arms tied behind their backs, and are seen as weak and only there for the pension.
Yes, they could have the courage of their convictions and speak out or resign, but the government of the day will spin themselves out of trouble by blaming the previous government and that all is well, and the media will miss the point completely or be dealing with some catastrophic celebrity scandal involving goats or something.
So I guess they have to rely on those already drawing their pensions to speak up for them. However they get shot down by the politicians for being out of touch, they get shot down by the press for being irrelevant, and they get shot down by the forces for speaking out when our job is to follow orders!
How can they win? How can the forces EVER have an effective voice?
Yes, they could have the courage of their convictions and speak out or resign, but the government of the day will spin themselves out of trouble by blaming the previous government and that all is well, and the media will miss the point completely or be dealing with some catastrophic celebrity scandal involving goats or something.
So I guess they have to rely on those already drawing their pensions to speak up for them. However they get shot down by the politicians for being out of touch, they get shot down by the press for being irrelevant, and they get shot down by the forces for speaking out when our job is to follow orders!
How can they win? How can the forces EVER have an effective voice?
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If we want to make some serious savings, then lets stop the wastage at Main Building on fancy chairs, original oil paintings, high quality TVs everywhere and God knows what else. At least most of the UK populus get the opportunity to see the Red Arrows, unlike main Building!!
Whilst I totally agree that there are savings to be made elsewhere, that does not mean that until they are made, the RAF (insert any agency in here) should overlook The Reds (again insert any 'surplus' item here).
As mentioned above HMY Britannia was binned as she was coming to the end of her life without a huge, expensive refit. Yet everyone harps on about the good PR that The Reds do, almost as if it justifies the cost. The UK is a sea-going nation first and foremost. We are an island that relies on the sea for the majority of its trade lines, yet we binned Britannia, something that was a symbol of our heritage as well as a great bit of PR and a projection of our will and ability to be a force on the seas.
The Reds are not indespensible!
The Navy will be announcing swinging cuts in personnel in the New Year, I've heard some of the figures being bandied about and it is frightening.
As much as I think The Reds are good at what they do, I'm afraid that in light of what is happpening across alll three Services, their position is untenable.
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Don't all national military aerobatic display teams claim to be "the best in the world"? They can't all be right, so at the risk of being judgemental, on what basis is the criterion set?
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anotherthing
'it is basically saying 'other people waste money so why should I do something to save it?'!!!'
What utter tosh! I'm not saying that at all.
The Red Arrows display to and are seen by millions of people throughout the year - how many get to see the original oil paintings in main building?
The Red Arrows contribute millions to the British economy throughout the year - What do the fancy chairs in main building contribute?
Lets cut waste and save money by all means, but it needs to be waste, and the Red Arrows are NOT waste, far from it. Fancy paintings, outrageously expensive chairs and a TV in every room in main building I would suggest IS waste.
'it is basically saying 'other people waste money so why should I do something to save it?'!!!'
What utter tosh! I'm not saying that at all.
The Red Arrows display to and are seen by millions of people throughout the year - how many get to see the original oil paintings in main building?
The Red Arrows contribute millions to the British economy throughout the year - What do the fancy chairs in main building contribute?
Lets cut waste and save money by all means, but it needs to be waste, and the Red Arrows are NOT waste, far from it. Fancy paintings, outrageously expensive chairs and a TV in every room in main building I would suggest IS waste.
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The CAS is running the RAF
We don't need to recruit. There are currently at least 250 people applying for each pilot post
^^ That was my quote. But I'm a Sergeant in a ground trade, so I can't be accused of being typically aircrew centric.
Like most ground tradesmen I didn't join the RAF because I'd seen the Reds. I joined because I was in the air cadets and really enjoyed my visits to RAF stations, plus the work experience days that went with that, so I suppose you could argue that the spaceys are in fact an important recruiting tool in their own right... as effective as the reds? More effective? Who knows, it's a difficult thing to quantify.
Like most ground tradesmen I didn't join the RAF because I'd seen the Reds. I joined because I was in the air cadets and really enjoyed my visits to RAF stations, plus the work experience days that went with that, so I suppose you could argue that the spaceys are in fact an important recruiting tool in their own right... as effective as the reds? More effective? Who knows, it's a difficult thing to quantify.
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Laarbruch,
My apologies, but you therefore must be aware of how difficult it is to get good quality recruits in the tech trades and the RAF needs to keep recruiting at the bottom end even if it is are reducing, otherwise it will be in the same shambles it was in the 90s
My apologies, but you therefore must be aware of how difficult it is to get good quality recruits in the tech trades and the RAF needs to keep recruiting at the bottom end even if it is are reducing, otherwise it will be in the same shambles it was in the 90s
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Arguably saying the Red Arrows are a recruitment tool is just as aircrew-centric than giving an example of applicants to aircrew posts!
I'd also agree that the ATC is the public face of the RAF now (There are more Air Cadets than regular RAF - I'm sure you don't like the fact, neither do I!), and probably likely to become the main focus for recruitment efforts (if they're needed). So recruiting into the RAF is never going to be a problem, whatever the trade, particularly given the reducing numbers.
I'd also agree that the ATC is the public face of the RAF now (There are more Air Cadets than regular RAF - I'm sure you don't like the fact, neither do I!), and probably likely to become the main focus for recruitment efforts (if they're needed). So recruiting into the RAF is never going to be a problem, whatever the trade, particularly given the reducing numbers.
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I think we all agree that getting rid of the Arrows will make zero difference to the guys and girls on the front line
The Red Arrows contribute millions to the British economy throughout the year
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So RAFAT Budget = 3 x BBMF Budget (£6.1M vs £1.9M)
I know what I'd rather keep!
BBMF aircrew also hold front-line and/or instructional duties - not a permanent 3 year post to the Reds.
BBMF seem to be a lot more value for money
I know what I'd rather keep!
BBMF aircrew also hold front-line and/or instructional duties - not a permanent 3 year post to the Reds.
BBMF seem to be a lot more value for money
Sideshow,
Nope - if there is a Stage 3 Option run on the Reds and it is taken, then the AIR Control Total is reduced.
In other words, the money saved by binning the Reds goes to 'Defence', and is not spread around the rest of the Gp or the Cmd.
Nope - if there is a Stage 3 Option run on the Reds and it is taken, then the AIR Control Total is reduced.
In other words, the money saved by binning the Reds goes to 'Defence', and is not spread around the rest of the Gp or the Cmd.