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Pay and allowances

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Pay and allowances

Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:43
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Downsizer, Trim Stab asked where it was going to come from, not where it is going to.

I'm reading all this "they will never cut it" bollox and thinking it seems so like the long list of "they will never cancel MRa4 / we can't not have LRMP / We need the Harriers for the Carriers / Scampton can't close because Nigger is buried there / and all that other stuff that came to pass.

The RAF is too big for both the requirements of the MOD and the available budget.

Any business faced withthis kind of budget crisis would make savage and effective cuts.

Close Kinloss full stop.

Close Lossie, Aircraft and kit to Marham full stop. No need for the OCU, just use existing experienced Pilots & SLF.

Close a handfull of others as well, including Lyneham, on the basis of, aircraft and equipment gets relocated to other stations, and ALL the service people get binned as of the end of the month.

No fannying around, no protecting yer pals. Yer station is out of business and you are out of a job. Real World, Real World, Go!

No Harriers, no need for Harrier drivers. Etc. Etc.

Enough Tonka mates can be found doing other things, including flying Tonkas from Marham.

A quick and easy (on the MOD & RAF) solution.

The people at Kinloss who said it could not be done are seeing that it could. When will the rest of you wake up and see it not only can but very well might, real soon?

I know a Flt Lt getting FP who has not been in the air for 18 months and has no potential for getting off the ground as aircrew ever again.

How can that be right?

Apart from the fact that there are no jobs to go to so they will not be leaving in droves through desire, the RAF has no need for loads of the people it has at present so there is little or no case for looking after anyone.

I'm not saying I agree with the principle, but you all need to accept the possibility.

The people who say we can't manage with less are nearly right. We can't do what we have been doing with half the people, a third of the aircraft and a lot less money.

But that's all that we really need to do a lot less, which is what is being asked of us. Not just in the RAF but all over the UK.

Budget holders have ruined the country, not just bailing out the banks, it runs deeper than that. So many items of waste are under your nose every day. Did the RAF Fight Safety Department really need to produce calendars? How can it be a good idea to spend millions of pounds a year on SSSA so that some staff can be based where they are not required instead of getting them to do the job from an airfield with quarters?

Would recruitment really have suffered without the Typhoon/Eurofighter branded Lanyards to give away at airshows? Do we need to have the AFCO in teh city centre paying a small fortune in rent when anyone who can't find their way to an airfield or a postbox may not be what the recruiters ought to be looking at anyway.

Do we need a 42 in plasma TV in the Guard room for visitors to watch while getting a vehilce pass?

Could we not have continued to use whiteboards and dry markers instead of the ever so clever (and expensive) new interactive stuff?
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:07
  #22 (permalink)  
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Do we need a 42 in plasma TV in the Guard room for visitors to watch while getting a vehilce pass?

Could we not have continued to use whiteboards and dry markers instead of the ever so clever (and expensive) new interactive stuff?
Whiteboards,,,, Chuffin' eck...we still use blackboards and chalk.... we dream of a whiteboard
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:07
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I know a Flt Lt getting FP who has not been in the air for 18 months and has no potential for getting off the ground as aircrew ever again.
If he was medically grounded, he would not be in reciept of flying pay. I ask again, how are you going to get peeps with the required experience to go into a 2 1/2 year desk tour unless they get to keep flying pay?

The only other way is promotion. In which case, the MOD will get to pay increased pensions when they come to leave.

Those that seem to think we have a darth of aircrew today are correct. Unfortunately for the RAF, the airline industry is about to pick up globally, and when it does, all those people that nearly defaulted on their mortgages due to a 12K top rate flying pay cut with their desk tour arent going to stick around I would suggest.

We are 18 months off a pretty serious decrease in aircrew numbers, due to the suck from the civil industry. When we have an RAF that has no experience due to the most senior and experienced walking, (because it will be those sorts that WILL leave) I suggest we will have problems. If people are discounting this, do some sniffing. A good place to start would be the number of first tourist pilots currently sitting their ATPL Groundschool exams.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:16
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Reality Check....

Quite amazing to read this "they can't do this to us" attitude.

What do you really expect...do you think they really give a fig about you as an individual/sqn/force...?

Its the harsh reality check that has been needed for years.

The attitude of don't worry the queen is paying has had its day...finally...we all paid and will continue to do so for a long time.

5d2d
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:18
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A 'darth' of aircrew? Is that like a 'flange' of baboons?
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:25
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The announcement was due yesterday, but it has been delayed due to the apparent political sensitivities of the impending bad news. Bosses at Land have been told to flag up resultant cases of financial hardship to the chain of command. Guess that says a lot.

No idea what the news is, but suggestions did include that it might end up hitting guys on ops - LSA? Who knows. However, it's now apparently gone political, don't expect anything in the immediate future. Wait until UK plc is having a really really bad day, then we might get to hear something.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:47
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Originally Posted by Melchett01
.....Wait until UK plc is having a really really bad day, then we might get to hear something.
Oh well, Russia just winning the 2018 World Cup may fit the description - stand-by for incoming.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 15:56
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Can't see them hitting Op Allowances while we are still engaged in Afghanistan.

LSA may go unless you are actually outside of the UK - not just away from home base.
CEA will go unless you are in SFA.
IE will go.
Disturbance Allowance will go.
HDT (Public) Personal Contribution will go to 9 Miles while the rate is cut.
Motor Mileage Allowance cut or will go.
Expect UK and overseas subsistence rates to be cut.
Mess Dress (SNCO) allowance to go.
Uniform Tax Allowance (Officers) to go.
Civilian Clothing Grant to go.
Unpleasant Working Allowance to be restricted to worst case band.
Multi-Engine In-flight catering to be cut - pax hot meals to go and no rations for crews on local sorties - grab and go to come in and be paid for by individual.
Flying Pay to be reduced/cut and qualifying periods extended.

Merry Christmas
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 16:34
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Devil Flying Pay

In the Canadian Air Force, aircrew on a ground tour don't keep their flying pay - no retention problem here! With the UK government’s love of anything Canadian right now maybe I should e-mail "call me Dave" and let him know.

CWD
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 16:59
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Blighter Pilot

I don't think you are far off with that list.

J_J
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 17:46
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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CWD,

The "huge" difference between the RCAF and RAF FP is in the amount. For you - losing 38p a day is not really an issue. For us - losing 13k per year is a big issue.

No-one has mentioned aircrew retention bonuses. Have these already stopped or are certain individuals still picking up 100k pre tax as I type?
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 18:29
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.38p

Party,

I think FP here is more than 0.38p, but then you sort of make my point for me. The CAF manage to recruit and retain aircrew without a very high FP package, so as the UK is strapped for cash right now and for the foreseeable future, why should you guys get paid 13K FP anyway? Is a high rate of FP really reflective of the difference between military aircrew pay and civi aircrew pay these days? I understood that starting salary as a new recruit in the airlines isn't as high as it used to be.

The "Royal" part of the CAF was dropped some time ago.

CWD
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 18:57
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CWD,

You're being a bit naughty there and selectively comparing small parts of 2 different systems. Canadian pilots are paid on a seperate payscale and so whilst their FP is small their Captain's pay compares favourably to a Flt Lt who's on top rate flying pay and it's pensionable (accrued at 2% of final salary for each year served if I remember correctly).

Not a bad deal.

Dash2

Ps isn't it the Canadian Air Division now not CAF?

Last edited by dash2; 2nd Dec 2010 at 19:08. Reason: nibbing
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 19:01
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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LSA may go unless you are actually outside of the UK - not just away from home base.
CEA will go unless you are in SFA.
IE will go.
Disturbance Allowance will go.
HDT (Public) Personal Contribution will go to 9 Miles while the rate is cut.
Motor Mileage Allowance cut or will go.
Expect UK and overseas subsistence rates to be cut.
Mess Dress (SNCO) allowance to go.
Uniform Tax Allowance (Officers) to go.
Civilian Clothing Grant to go.
Unpleasant Working Allowance to be restricted to worst case band.
Multi-Engine In-flight catering to be cut - pax hot meals to go and no rations for crews on local sorties - grab and go to come in and be paid for by individual.
Flying Pay to be reduced/cut and qualifying periods extended.
Not to mention the savings achieved in cuts to the admin overhead of all that...
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 19:10
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CWD,

Before Jayand picks me up on the 13k figure - it's actually on a graduated scale for the RAF with a low starting rate of FP building to the higher rate after 8 years. I'm not sure how starting salaries compare between the RAF and the airlines but for the very experienced aircrew, i.e, read across airline captain / AT captain, the 13k (ish) addition is fairly realistic. The real problem though is that our senior aircrew (myself included) have become used to getting the extra pay and have consequently made life decisions (and mortgages) on the expectation of continuing to receive a similar rate. For yourself, the percentage pay cut that you will experience going into a ground tour might not put you off and it could also be advantageous for your career. For us, individuals would not accept the huge percentage reduction so readily, creating havoc in the manning world once SDSR has eventually balanced out.

Apologies about the "Royal" bit by the way!
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 19:26
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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University Air Sqns - ATC Cadet AEF or in short a whole fleet of Grob Tutor aircraft and VGS gliders; BBMF, Red Arrows, Airshows, Recruiting offices, PTIs, Central Messing (kitchens), all remain under the Radar; but for how long.

We cannot afford tradition or nostalgia any more then we can afford to pass on borrowed money in a sub to Eire or continue handing out to third world countries.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 20:09
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Dash - You are correct

You are correct; I was being a bit mischievous. I didn't mention that the pay is different from the RAF. Sorry about that. I also accept Party's point about those already on FP making life decisions; maybe (like the AFPS 05 pension) a new FP package could be introduced to new joiners?

The CAF is the wider Airforce, 1 CAD is the same as Air Command in the RAF. There are members of the AF that are not in 1 CAD, such as myself in a Project Office.

One other big difference in pay between the CAF and the RAF is that we got a pay rise this year, I wish I could say the same for my RAF pension.

CWD
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 20:17
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Fairly senior Flt Lt (lvl 7) on £44,058, on Enhanced rate FP of £16,147, total pay just on about £60,000.

Sqn Ldr Level 1: £47,760

"Well done Flt Lt Bloggs, you are a snappy dresser and all round good egg, and therefore you have been promoted to Sqn Ldr. Go immediately to the IPT/MAA/JHC/Head office/{insert your choice of ground tour here}, oh and as its not a flying tour, take a £12,000 pay cut, what do you mean you don't want to?"
.

There is obviously a need to save money, and a lot of it, but a 20% pay cut for your best officers on promotion just doesn't seem like quite the way to do it?
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 20:29
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As for Canadians with flying pay....

Top level Sgt NCA with middle rate flying pay gets the same amount of money (after conversion) as the top level Sgt Canadian NCA without flying pay... So there is no need for retention because they are already paid much better than the UK equivalents.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 20:31
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Originally Posted by PlasticCabDriver

but a 20% pay cut for your best officers on promotion
Experience tells me that lately that is becoming less and less likely
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