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Can someone explain why the MRA4 has been cancelled before we screw up big time.

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Can someone explain why the MRA4 has been cancelled before we screw up big time.

Old 8th Dec 2010, 06:59
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DFM - The story so far

Yes DFM, and I still await a reply to my Open Letter to the Prime Minister.

From the acknowledgement received 24 November:

Because the Ministry of Defence is best placed to respond to the matters you raise, he has asked me (a member of the Direct Communications Unit) to forward your letter to the Department so that they may reply to your concerns directly.

I am still waiting for the reply. Hopefully, that is a good sign.....
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 08:59
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Given that the only sensible response is that this is a capability holiday, and will not become a permanent gap, then what are we going to replace it with (P8?), when, at what cost, and what capabilities are we still potentially going to be missing?
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 14:33
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but if it was due to the Government saving BAE out of a sticky hole then It would come as no surprise.
Think the exact opposite... esp given the amount invested into MRA4 so far.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 15:03
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When the P8 Poseidon has flown for three years in operational service, I think that the USN will be very disappointed. Despite more modern kit, it will never be able to fill the Orion's shoes. It needs at least one more engine and it cannot be thrown around a sonobuoy pattern like an Orion or a Nimrod.

The only advantage that I can see is that P8 pilots will all be experienced on a current commercial type when they choose to retire. They are not all Annapolis career wallahs.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 15:48
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will all be experienced on a current commercial type
Oooh,
to be honest I tend to get nervous flying on something that's been around as long as a 737... yes, I know it's illogical, but having flown for a living for a while in my youth I was frightened often enough to ensure I never go through check in without my lucky rabbits feet (one is never enough), various holy medals (I figure everyone becomes religious when falling from 40,000 ft) and balloon (one lungful at height will inflate it to mega size, my master plan is to blow into balloon, grip end, float down gently).

Flapping arms on the way down, if all else fails, is not to be sneezed at - after all, have you anything better to be spending your time and energy on?

Surely even Boeing will be too embarrassed to be selling a version of 737 by the time prospective P-8 pilots are finished?

As for inability to lay a tight pattern etc - what we need is something a bit like LGBs, ie steerable sonobuoys (ta DAAAH)...whizz over at a steady height, direction and speed dispensing buoys, then steer them during descent to exactly where you want them. Then, of course, spend the next hour or more scratching your head about the geometry you are trying to interpret without being aware of how they all immediately drifted in different directions at varying speed.
(Except for the one hooked over the sub's comms mast, which is doing 6 knots south).

Dave
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 16:31
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to be honest I tend to get nervous flying on something that's been around as long as a 737

Something like a Comet you mean........!!!!
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 17:03
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Honestly, how many of you are concerned about the loss of capability and what it means supposedly for the UK and how many are really caring cos it's their backyard that is getting shat on?
Am not playing down the personal impact as it is **** but an honest question?
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 17:08
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Just a cotton pickin' minute...

..I've got glass of nice red by my left elbow but I WANT a pint of what davejb is drinkin' right now.

The Ancient Mariner
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 17:12
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Jayand,

Who is "you"?

The great British, X-factor watching, public?

The people posting on this thread? Which covers a wide spread including:

Non maritime people not living in Moray.
Ex-maritime people living anywhere from Moray to Lincoln to Australia.
Current maritime people living in Moray still......
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 17:24
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Not maritime, not anywhere near Moray or in fact ANY RAF base, and genuinely concerned about loss of capability.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 17:42
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A thought; the USCG Herc that was at EGQK earlier this year looked the biz. Could/is that be an option? (given that we allready have in-house experience of the J?).
 
Old 8th Dec 2010, 18:58
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Biggus you can get anal about grammar all you like but what about answering the question?
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 19:04
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Jayand,

I wasn't being anal about grammar, or having a "pop" at you - you're the one who is starting to become offensive....

All I was pointing out is that many people reading/posting on this thread have little appreciation of maritme avaiation, and a lot live many miles from Moray, therefore for many it is not their "backyard that is getting shat on" as you refer to it... Your question will therefore not apply to them.

Grow up and make some sensible comments there's a good chap.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 19:58
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As others have, or will, point out, the Nimrod, as an ASW platform, worked largely out of sight of both the public and, we hoped, the potential enemy.

The submarine slipping silently steadily through UK waters was never that silent nor did it slip. Always a P3 or Nimrod or Atlantique was there sniffing his presence.

We flew a 365 day mission when most in the UK went about their normal Monday to Friday toil. Often we would work a normal week only for the weekend to be a hectic one with a continuous cycle of sorties. Sometimes we even continued south as far as the Azores.

If asked what we were doing the answer was always 'nothing', where were you going, 'nowhere'. When are you coming home, 'don't know.'
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 20:02
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John,
sober (then <g>)

Capability AND concern for old friends who stayed in after I left, as I am aware of the degree of commitment they maintained right up to the moment of shafting and the quite amazing amount of skill and experience built up in the fleet. That experience will not be regained in a very long time, in my view, retaining a core of top blokes will only mitigate the damage.

As I live on an island, like everyone else in the UK (including Cameron) I cannot see the sense in maintaining an ability to go to the middle east to fight people if it is at the cost of losing the ability to defend our own shoreline.

It's easy to imagine that current and past maritime aircrew are fighting for their patch, but the reality is that we're the folk who best know what is being discarded and we're appalled.

Dave
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 20:19
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Good reply Dave.......from one Island now to another we still need the capability to defend our own shores before getting into a mix with others in a far off land. From the sun in NZ to all the Maritime guys with an unknown future seasons greetings.
Fergi
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 20:55
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Im not shure where the Nimrod 4 project got to. Did they actually fly one and had it fully shaken down and sorted? Or, are there still problems to sort out and a possibility of further slipage and cost rises?
If the latter, might it be that there is something seriously wrong with it and it might never work as intended?
I guess it is unlikely that a government would chop something like this the day before delivery of a fully sorted project.
What are the remaining problems that are preventing the Nimrod from being handed over?
bb
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 22:48
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The short but bone answer is;

a. the money to operate it

b. the money to base it (part of a)

c. the money to own it (anyone remember RAB?)


In the long term, we wll pay for this several times over.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 15:33
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Hanfimar

In answer to your question I'm afraid the decision is done and dusted. I wrote to my MP and to my surprise he actually phoned me up to discuss the matter. He had been shown around the finished article and was impressed with it even if he really didn't understand what it's capabilities meant. He called me again the other day to say that he and several of his MP colleagues had to report that sadly no change had been made; the MRA4 was dead, something I knew from personal contacts.


If the AFB, the Navy and the defence secretary did not want the aircraft cancelled, then that means that only one person could have made the decision – Dave, or his fuzzy thinking liberal co-hort. But then when the top man is only experienced in Politics, economics and spreadsheets, what else can you expect?
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 15:52
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Did I hear that the Nimrod mk4 has not flown since march and has some "safety issues". I guess after something like a 10 year delay and still no functioning aeroplane might be the reason that the government eventually had to give up. If the Nimrod is only a few £££ and weeks away from being a success it would be completed. Clearly it is not! Should we spend another £1B and wait another x years? There would still a gap in the role the Nimrod should have filled, just more money spent in the hope of the project coming good. Or am I missing something?
How much more did we need to spend and how much longer would we have had to wait ? What would people say if we blew another £1B and 3 years from now someone finds that it is still not ready for service?
bb
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