WSOp's/WSO's at Kinloss, what does the future hold?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The real world
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about the guys who have got their own houses? they are potentially in a far worse situation, they now own houses that are probably worth much less than they paid for them with little prospect of being able to sell or rent them out! they could be forced to sell for a much reduced price or forced to leave their families behind whilst they "possibly" get a new job down south somewhere.
Being young and not on the housing market could be the best pot to be in at Kinloss right now, so in a nut shell stop feeling sorry for yourself and start plotting your escape if there are any!
Being young and not on the housing market could be the best pot to be in at Kinloss right now, so in a nut shell stop feeling sorry for yourself and start plotting your escape if there are any!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Scotland
Age: 50
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
6-8 WSOps used to fly on the Nimrod, less the Engineer, and dependant on crew composition.
Anyway, this thread is alarming and depressing. I get the impression that people on here are doing a little too much scaremongering.
Does anyone actually know about forced redundancies yet? Does anyone know about voluntary redundancies yet?
If they do can we please have some pukka information then?
Otherwise any young WSOs/WSOps reading this should remember that it's just a rumour forum.
There may well be unpopular moves ahead for some and those at the end or start of their contracts may feel they need to worry - but that is mere speculation and by saying that I may be just as bad as the doom and gloom merchants here.
Whilst not wanting to stick my head in the sand and thinking it won't happen to me, these changes may take years to implement - I would very much doubt that people are going to queuing at the job centre next week.
As for feathering your nest and making yourself look more important than you really are - I think that's a load of old tosh for most cases. Many WSOps, particularly Sgts, don't have that luxury available and will have to just wait and see what happens, and of course, when.
Do we actually know when these decisions are going to happen? PR 11 perhaps? Which is Spring 2011 I believe, although please feel free to correct me.
We could look at the last 'big chop' of people and make assumptions from that if that would give some people a bit of hope. Now, I don't know exact numbers and this is a small bit of knowledge that I have, but some AEOps did take voluntary redundancy after Options for Change - does anyone know of forced redundancies? An honest question.
Would it be too much to ask people to employ their common sense in looking at this realistically, not just make wild predictions that we are all in dire trouble? If people are in the know, AND they can let us know, then please fire away.
Rant off. Out.
Anyway, this thread is alarming and depressing. I get the impression that people on here are doing a little too much scaremongering.
Does anyone actually know about forced redundancies yet? Does anyone know about voluntary redundancies yet?
If they do can we please have some pukka information then?
Otherwise any young WSOs/WSOps reading this should remember that it's just a rumour forum.
There may well be unpopular moves ahead for some and those at the end or start of their contracts may feel they need to worry - but that is mere speculation and by saying that I may be just as bad as the doom and gloom merchants here.
Whilst not wanting to stick my head in the sand and thinking it won't happen to me, these changes may take years to implement - I would very much doubt that people are going to queuing at the job centre next week.
As for feathering your nest and making yourself look more important than you really are - I think that's a load of old tosh for most cases. Many WSOps, particularly Sgts, don't have that luxury available and will have to just wait and see what happens, and of course, when.
Do we actually know when these decisions are going to happen? PR 11 perhaps? Which is Spring 2011 I believe, although please feel free to correct me.
We could look at the last 'big chop' of people and make assumptions from that if that would give some people a bit of hope. Now, I don't know exact numbers and this is a small bit of knowledge that I have, but some AEOps did take voluntary redundancy after Options for Change - does anyone know of forced redundancies? An honest question.
Would it be too much to ask people to employ their common sense in looking at this realistically, not just make wild predictions that we are all in dire trouble? If people are in the know, AND they can let us know, then please fire away.
Rant off. Out.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The real world
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think it's scaremongering to suggest that their isn't enough jobs available to go around for many in the NCA cadre, the RAF is getting cut by 5000 so exactly where are the Kinloss NCA all going to go? yes a few to UAV's yes a few to SH although there is already a big line to join and a rather inadequate training system to cope with it! perhaps a few to fixed wing LM and some to SAR, what of the numerous rest? common sense if unpalatable suggests that they are at risk of losing their jobs.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Petasus, a nice upbeat post, however it misses the point that redundancies or not there will be precious few jobs for anyone at ISK in the short term and, if rumour is to be believed, ISL in the not too distant future either.
This means that almost everyone will be uprooted.
Those with houses will, as previously pointed out, have a choice of leaving family behind while they are posted or they seek jobs elsewhere or leaving their house empty and moving into a quarter supposing they are still employed by Betty.
Even those in quarters may also have to leave family behind while the personnel shuffle goes on. For those posted to other roles the usual advice is not to move your family until you pass the course.
This means that almost everyone will be uprooted.
Those with houses will, as previously pointed out, have a choice of leaving family behind while they are posted or they seek jobs elsewhere or leaving their house empty and moving into a quarter supposing they are still employed by Betty.
Even those in quarters may also have to leave family behind while the personnel shuffle goes on. For those posted to other roles the usual advice is not to move your family until you pass the course.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Where the heart belongs
Age: 55
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
It's going to be a tough time for all, not just the AEOp's. The whole airforce is going to suffer. There's over 2000 at Kinloss, less than 200 are WSOp's of one badge or another.
If you aren't on a pensionable engagement and your SJAR isn't particularly spectacular, worry.
If you are on the new pension scheme and your SJAR isn't particularly spectacular, worry.
If you are a young fit WSOp of any brevet, volunteer for rotary as soon as there are spaces on the courses.
The only known fact is that no one knows how many of which trades are going yet, but bet your bottom dollar as soon as they do we will be subjected to a reverse promotion board.
If you aren't on a pensionable engagement and your SJAR isn't particularly spectacular, worry.
If you are on the new pension scheme and your SJAR isn't particularly spectacular, worry.
If you are a young fit WSOp of any brevet, volunteer for rotary as soon as there are spaces on the courses.
The only known fact is that no one knows how many of which trades are going yet, but bet your bottom dollar as soon as they do we will be subjected to a reverse promotion board.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Blighty
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sideshow Bob.
According to Kinloss OC, there is around 1300 people at Kinloss....
And we're led to believe there is an 18 month waiting list on all Rotary WSOp training due to a bottleneck at Shawbury... You SURE there is spaces? Because there doesn't appear to be any being offered!
According to Kinloss OC, there is around 1300 people at Kinloss....
And we're led to believe there is an 18 month waiting list on all Rotary WSOp training due to a bottleneck at Shawbury... You SURE there is spaces? Because there doesn't appear to be any being offered!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Where the heart belongs
Age: 55
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
as soon as there are spaces on the courses
There was 2000 when I left, but then again the whole Sqn went with me so 1300 about right.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, this makes for heavy reading; I am due to start at Halton in two weeks, probably picked the worst time in years to join. One supposes that really shining at NCAITC and 55 Sqn will increase my chances of there being a spot available... That said in the present climate I suppose nothing is certain.
Squeeky bum time as they say....
Matt
Squeeky bum time as they say....
Matt
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Matt, that is one of the quirks of the reduction in personnel. New blood is still needed at the bottom to keep feeding the system.
While many already in could be retrained to new roles everyone gets older year by year and they can't have big gaps occuring through a complete recruitment freeze.
While many already in could be retrained to new roles everyone gets older year by year and they can't have big gaps occuring through a complete recruitment freeze.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Where the heart belongs
Age: 55
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Looks like NCA will cease to exist in 10 years time anyway....
Depressing, but there is little need for specialist aircrew now, except maybe pilots...
Depressing, but there is little need for specialist aircrew now, except maybe pilots...
Mate, this isn't the end of the AEOp just a re-adjustment of manning, something us Air Eng's have had to live with for the last decade.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Scotland
Age: 50
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pontius, a valid point but not one that I've missed. Given the option of an uproot (to be expected in military circles, no matter what the job) or out of work, I would think that most would take the move.
Without trying to contradict myself, I would think that if ISK does, sadly, close then people will have to move, (numbers noted sideshow) that's a fact. What isn't a fact is the redundancy issues. Yet. Alot of people seem to be telling us to worry without proper fact.
On another thread a little more perspective is employed and the opinions seem to be that if the worst does come to the worst, it won't be a sudden issue. Who at the moment knows whether AFPS 05 people will be better off or not? Nobody I would wager, or rather nobody who is going to post on here.
Do we realistically think that 5000 poeple will just receive a brown envelope? I don't. There are mechanisms to achieve the numbers and not just widescale instant redundancy. I think Sideshow could give us an idea of what he and his mates have done to survive a similiar stupid decision - not all Air Engs are on the outside now. Having said that I can see what the problems are with people and jobs available.
I do feel for those at Kinloss, the not knowing about your job, career and home must be awful. But having to move out of necessity is just tough frankly, I wouldn't want to leave my family at a trying time but I've done it before and I'd do it again. Part of service life I'm afraid, well, that's how I see it anyway.
Without trying to contradict myself, I would think that if ISK does, sadly, close then people will have to move, (numbers noted sideshow) that's a fact. What isn't a fact is the redundancy issues. Yet. Alot of people seem to be telling us to worry without proper fact.
On another thread a little more perspective is employed and the opinions seem to be that if the worst does come to the worst, it won't be a sudden issue. Who at the moment knows whether AFPS 05 people will be better off or not? Nobody I would wager, or rather nobody who is going to post on here.
Do we realistically think that 5000 poeple will just receive a brown envelope? I don't. There are mechanisms to achieve the numbers and not just widescale instant redundancy. I think Sideshow could give us an idea of what he and his mates have done to survive a similiar stupid decision - not all Air Engs are on the outside now. Having said that I can see what the problems are with people and jobs available.
I do feel for those at Kinloss, the not knowing about your job, career and home must be awful. But having to move out of necessity is just tough frankly, I wouldn't want to leave my family at a trying time but I've done it before and I'd do it again. Part of service life I'm afraid, well, that's how I see it anyway.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
On a positive note, many of the reduction was not expected to be too hard to achieve. Also the reductions this time are about half the reductions in percentage terms as in the early 90s with the peace dividend.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
About 2500 natural wastage and 2500 brown envelopes is what I am hearing.
Whilst I have some sympathy those who were not astute enough to see that the game of musical chairs was going to come to a grinding halt with this SDSR package may well live to regret that lack of fore sightedness.
Without a bum on the seat of a working platform quite a few folk are going to be out of work in the coming months.
Whilst I have some sympathy those who were not astute enough to see that the game of musical chairs was going to come to a grinding halt with this SDSR package may well live to regret that lack of fore sightedness.
Without a bum on the seat of a working platform quite a few folk are going to be out of work in the coming months.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The folk on '05 pension is an interesting one because it is/was designed to retain personnel until their 55th birthday and has been very effective at doing so. This of course means that if you choose to leave before you are 55 through whichever course of action (pvr/ngr) you would have been financially disadvantaged. (Notwithstanding the leave in your final year for tax purposes if you intend to continue working scam).
To 'sack' people presently employed in a 'pic' that does not get subsequently disestablished is forbidden under civil law and more often these days, civil law is being adhered to by the military. I know that HMG believe themselves to have a get-out-clause for all walks of lifes mysteries but EDP for the rest of your life is somewhat differant to a time critical PA pension. I guess the punchline is that some people may find themselves in an unwanted position that could be legally challenged, unless Manning box very clever at a targeted audience. Of course the closure of any base makes an entire workforce vulnerable even within civilian guidelines.
To 'sack' people presently employed in a 'pic' that does not get subsequently disestablished is forbidden under civil law and more often these days, civil law is being adhered to by the military. I know that HMG believe themselves to have a get-out-clause for all walks of lifes mysteries but EDP for the rest of your life is somewhat differant to a time critical PA pension. I guess the punchline is that some people may find themselves in an unwanted position that could be legally challenged, unless Manning box very clever at a targeted audience. Of course the closure of any base makes an entire workforce vulnerable even within civilian guidelines.
Tiger,
AFPS05 is not terribly complicated, but is widely misunderstood - especially by those not on it.
As an example, but I don't want to have to go through all the fine detail, if you leave the RAF on AFPS05 at 54 years 364 days you (ultimately) get more money than someone who left at 55. You just don't get it as early (hence your personal circumstances are very important).
Exactly how far before your 55 point you can leave under AFPS05 and still get the same amount of money as if you had stayed to the end I haven't calculated, but it wouldn't be too hard to work out!
AFPS05 is not terribly complicated, but is widely misunderstood - especially by those not on it.
As an example, but I don't want to have to go through all the fine detail, if you leave the RAF on AFPS05 at 54 years 364 days you (ultimately) get more money than someone who left at 55. You just don't get it as early (hence your personal circumstances are very important).
Exactly how far before your 55 point you can leave under AFPS05 and still get the same amount of money as if you had stayed to the end I haven't calculated, but it wouldn't be too hard to work out!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Annes
Age: 68
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmmmm,
First off, many folk join the services to enjoy world travel and a regular shift from base to base. If you were a kipper fleet NCO you got sent to Kinloss (since DG closed) and rotted there until Andy Stewart became Emperor. Having resolved themselves to accept this lack of movement, many tried desperately to enjoy curling, caelidhs, and various winter sports - which every sensible chap knows are uncomfortable at best and dangerous otherwise. Don't tell folk who have been denied the opportunity to enjoy our dwindling number of far flung bases over the years that they're somehow at fault for counting on the moribund stability they've endured for several decades now that the goalposts have been moved - overnight.
The problem with an airbase closure, which is what we are almost certainly looking at, is that your house is on the market along with a hell of a lot of other houses, all at the same time.
Moray is currently aghast, I think it'd be fair to say - it's not just the RAF personnel, but the local towns are having nightmares about the loss of income from the RAF, at the same time as local government cuts are biting deep and about to draw blood. Now dump lots of houses on the local market, which is far from buoyant anyway....I'm sure many a serviceman is currently imagining being permanently away from home, if he/she is posted elsewhere, as it will probably take years and years to break even on the house.... when it finally sells... and the wife/hubby and kids can join them.
Now throw in the closure of RAF Lossie, which everyone thinks is a foregone conclusion, and the problem doubles.
An individual being required to exit - well, tough luck, dry your eyes princess etc (I dislike that phrase, it seems to denote the self abusers in our community frankly) - but when you close a station the problems magnify tremendously, and I think it's more than a little stupid to not realise that this isn't a 'you are all subject to posting' type problem but a major upheaval that should never have been required....had our finances been appropriately managed.
So, my sympathy is with the personnel of RAF Kinloss, I expect to extend that sympathy to Lossie 6 months or so down the line, the people of Moray who will suffer the double whammy of harsh cuts in local government spending coupled with the deletion of a large part of the local community will also need - but I guess won't get - some help too.
Almost unnoticeable in all this, is the impact of losing so many folk who spent their spare time contributing to virtually every local charity, every local initiative - a LOT of the things that improved the lives of all around here will go when Kinloss dies.
Yes, I think NCA - but also everyone else at Kinloss - should be given a break. The defence review (bollerks, it was a spending review) has incidentally probably economically blighted a large part of Scotland, which call me Dave probably doesn't care about as there's more chance of Bin Laden getting the local seat than a Tory... as an englishman living and working in Forres, following a career ('he careered downhill') as NCO aircrew, I think we should all currently be booing and hissing the politicians, not servicemen.
Dave
As for all the blah about wife/kids/job/mortgage/cat stability, get real - you can, and should reasonably expect, to be moved whenever they like if you want a full Service career.
The problem with an airbase closure, which is what we are almost certainly looking at, is that your house is on the market along with a hell of a lot of other houses, all at the same time.
Moray is currently aghast, I think it'd be fair to say - it's not just the RAF personnel, but the local towns are having nightmares about the loss of income from the RAF, at the same time as local government cuts are biting deep and about to draw blood. Now dump lots of houses on the local market, which is far from buoyant anyway....I'm sure many a serviceman is currently imagining being permanently away from home, if he/she is posted elsewhere, as it will probably take years and years to break even on the house.... when it finally sells... and the wife/hubby and kids can join them.
Now throw in the closure of RAF Lossie, which everyone thinks is a foregone conclusion, and the problem doubles.
An individual being required to exit - well, tough luck, dry your eyes princess etc (I dislike that phrase, it seems to denote the self abusers in our community frankly) - but when you close a station the problems magnify tremendously, and I think it's more than a little stupid to not realise that this isn't a 'you are all subject to posting' type problem but a major upheaval that should never have been required....had our finances been appropriately managed.
So, my sympathy is with the personnel of RAF Kinloss, I expect to extend that sympathy to Lossie 6 months or so down the line, the people of Moray who will suffer the double whammy of harsh cuts in local government spending coupled with the deletion of a large part of the local community will also need - but I guess won't get - some help too.
Almost unnoticeable in all this, is the impact of losing so many folk who spent their spare time contributing to virtually every local charity, every local initiative - a LOT of the things that improved the lives of all around here will go when Kinloss dies.
Yes, I think NCA - but also everyone else at Kinloss - should be given a break. The defence review (bollerks, it was a spending review) has incidentally probably economically blighted a large part of Scotland, which call me Dave probably doesn't care about as there's more chance of Bin Laden getting the local seat than a Tory... as an englishman living and working in Forres, following a career ('he careered downhill') as NCO aircrew, I think we should all currently be booing and hissing the politicians, not servicemen.
Dave
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At least you guys are signed on to 55 so to get rid of you all would require a hefty pay off and an immediate pension. Us Groundies dont have any of the benefits you guys get and we are in at work every day while we watch the aircrew bretheren each side of us on permanant gardening leave. You think you have it bad 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Blighty
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plenty of us not signed on to 55 matey..
As for me, i'm worth a pittence in redundency, dont qualify for ressettlement grant for another 18 months, and have little future in an Air Force I was hoping to give 30+ years of my life...
As for me, i'm worth a pittence in redundency, dont qualify for ressettlement grant for another 18 months, and have little future in an Air Force I was hoping to give 30+ years of my life...
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry I thought all Aircrew were signed on to that 
Well I hope they give the guys a good pay off anyway. Plenty guys can move on and get a new career with some cash in the bank. I just hope its true they are going to fish out you guys to the commonwealth countries and the US to keep the trade.
Well I hope they give the guys a good pay off anyway. Plenty guys can move on and get a new career with some cash in the bank. I just hope its true they are going to fish out you guys to the commonwealth countries and the US to keep the trade.