Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".
RLE et al
The current cut back, make do, and ignore risks attitude taken by our political leaders has done us no favours either.
Previous Governments attempted to save money by deciding that the Hercules did not need Explosion Suppressant Foam, by cutting the training hours for pilots, and by deciding that the Snatch Land Rover was good enough to deal with the threat from IEDs in Iraq. Did these decisions work out well? Or was there a very real cost in lives and capability? If cutting the training hours given to pilots contributes to an increased accident rate and fatalities, why does this logic not extend to carrier deck crews and others? How expensive would a single major crash on the deck be in terms of aircraft destroyed or damaged, damage to the ship, personnel killed or injured?
The best way to train carrier crews to deal with having embarked fixed wing aircraft is to embark fixed wing aircraft, and if the future is STOVL.....
I still think we need to have embarked fixed wing aircraft at sea before Queen Elizabeth/Prince Of Wales/F35B arrive in service - even if it is only a few borrowed AV8Bs attached to NFSF(FW). If ETPS can safely and economically operate small numbers of foreign jets (such as the Alpha Jet or Grippen) then why cannot NFSF(FW) operate say a couple of borrowed AV8Bs to give us a jet for UK based RN fixed wing jocks to fly, to embark on deck, and to contribute to trials and development of landing aids and other equipment? Would this not be an easier and simpler thing to do that the proposal I made here (over a few posts/pages)?
Or embark foreign ones. Would embarking foreign Harriers be too embarrassing for the Government?
The capability argument is different. However, who knows what the next few years will bring? The civil war in Syria will increasingly cause security issues for the West, and the elections in Israel in the new year mean that a new Israeli Government will be forced to deal with the Iranian nuclear issue. The availability of US Navy carriers will be less than we might hope for, likewise France's Charles De Gaulle, and the possibility increases that we will face crises in which we need the unique attributes of carrier based attack capability (including political dexterity and a reduced transit time), and carrier based fleet defence (no shipborne missile system has the same range as a fighter, nor can ship based system visually identify unknown aircraft or intercept and warn them off.
At the same time it would appear that relying on land based aircraft operating at extremes of range will become more of an issue as the RAF's AAR capability is reduced.
This article gives a hint at how costs could be kept low. Given that our politicians seem determined to get us involved in new conflicts, one might argue whether filling the capability gap would be more expensive than entering a new conflict, and having (say) a couple of Minehunters sunk. Or a spike in oil prices as we struggle to protect shipping?
Or are we sticking to the "no wars this decade" line? SDSR may have said that all conflicts this decade will involve conflicts only against enemies with an air force or navy, but potential adversaries might get a say. Nobody seems to have consulted them anyway - they still think that MiGs, submarines, missiles, attack helicopters, and naval mines are worth having.
The current cut back, make do, and ignore risks attitude taken by our political leaders has done us no favours either.
Previous Governments attempted to save money by deciding that the Hercules did not need Explosion Suppressant Foam, by cutting the training hours for pilots, and by deciding that the Snatch Land Rover was good enough to deal with the threat from IEDs in Iraq. Did these decisions work out well? Or was there a very real cost in lives and capability? If cutting the training hours given to pilots contributes to an increased accident rate and fatalities, why does this logic not extend to carrier deck crews and others? How expensive would a single major crash on the deck be in terms of aircraft destroyed or damaged, damage to the ship, personnel killed or injured?
The best way to train carrier crews to deal with having embarked fixed wing aircraft is to embark fixed wing aircraft, and if the future is STOVL.....
I still think we need to have embarked fixed wing aircraft at sea before Queen Elizabeth/Prince Of Wales/F35B arrive in service - even if it is only a few borrowed AV8Bs attached to NFSF(FW). If ETPS can safely and economically operate small numbers of foreign jets (such as the Alpha Jet or Grippen) then why cannot NFSF(FW) operate say a couple of borrowed AV8Bs to give us a jet for UK based RN fixed wing jocks to fly, to embark on deck, and to contribute to trials and development of landing aids and other equipment? Would this not be an easier and simpler thing to do that the proposal I made here (over a few posts/pages)?
Or embark foreign ones. Would embarking foreign Harriers be too embarrassing for the Government?
The capability argument is different. However, who knows what the next few years will bring? The civil war in Syria will increasingly cause security issues for the West, and the elections in Israel in the new year mean that a new Israeli Government will be forced to deal with the Iranian nuclear issue. The availability of US Navy carriers will be less than we might hope for, likewise France's Charles De Gaulle, and the possibility increases that we will face crises in which we need the unique attributes of carrier based attack capability (including political dexterity and a reduced transit time), and carrier based fleet defence (no shipborne missile system has the same range as a fighter, nor can ship based system visually identify unknown aircraft or intercept and warn them off.
At the same time it would appear that relying on land based aircraft operating at extremes of range will become more of an issue as the RAF's AAR capability is reduced.
This article gives a hint at how costs could be kept low. Given that our politicians seem determined to get us involved in new conflicts, one might argue whether filling the capability gap would be more expensive than entering a new conflict, and having (say) a couple of Minehunters sunk. Or a spike in oil prices as we struggle to protect shipping?
Or are we sticking to the "no wars this decade" line? SDSR may have said that all conflicts this decade will involve conflicts only against enemies with an air force or navy, but potential adversaries might get a say. Nobody seems to have consulted them anyway - they still think that MiGs, submarines, missiles, attack helicopters, and naval mines are worth having.
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This thread reminds me of the Red Dwarf program when the computer tries to explain to 'Rimmer'?? that all the crew is dead... Rimmer will not accept they atre all dead and starts asking about individuals.
What about the captain?
'He's dead!
What about the engineer?
'He's dead, the engineer is dead, the captain is dead, the whole crew is dead'.
What about Joe Bloggs?
'He's dead, Joe Bloggs is dead, the captain's dead, the engineer is dead, THEY ARE ALL DEAD!
***************
I honestly believe the Harrier is dead...
It is no longer in service... It is dead
It is deceased and is no longer an option.. The Harrier is dead
We can suggest until the Moon turns blue that it might be a good idea to hire, buy, beg, borrow or steal a few Harrier aircraft but it is NOT going to yhappen..
No Harrier now, no Harrier tomorrow, no Harrier the day after...
The Harrier is an ex operational aircraft, it has gone... It is deceased..
Hang on...
Why don't we buy a few from the Americans, they have a few spare aircraft they might not want
What about the captain?
'He's dead!
What about the engineer?
'He's dead, the engineer is dead, the captain is dead, the whole crew is dead'.
What about Joe Bloggs?
'He's dead, Joe Bloggs is dead, the captain's dead, the engineer is dead, THEY ARE ALL DEAD!
***************
I honestly believe the Harrier is dead...
It is no longer in service... It is dead
It is deceased and is no longer an option.. The Harrier is dead
We can suggest until the Moon turns blue that it might be a good idea to hire, buy, beg, borrow or steal a few Harrier aircraft but it is NOT going to yhappen..
No Harrier now, no Harrier tomorrow, no Harrier the day after...
The Harrier is an ex operational aircraft, it has gone... It is deceased..
Hang on...
Why don't we buy a few from the Americans, they have a few spare aircraft they might not want
The current cut back, make do, and ignore risks attitude taken by our political leaders has done us no favours either.
I met Craig Charles out of 'Red Dwarf' in the Camberwell Blockbuster once. I was, by sheer chance, looking for a 'Red Dwarf' video. He hadn't a clue where they were. I was, however, able to help him locate the movie he was after.
If we can't kill this thread by argument, let's try 'drift'
If we can't kill this thread by argument, let's try 'drift'
I met Bob Carolgees once (but not Spit the dog) by a storm drain on the pan at Dakar in the mid 80s. He was in the company of some very attractive, but dim, female dancers (who I was far more interested in) as part of a touring show. We had both been thrown off our respective VC-10s while they refuelled, he going north after entertaining the troops in the Falklands, me going south....
Well yes, I know it's both boring and extreme thread drift, but I thought that was the tactic we were employing now given that logical argument and a reality check isn't working!
Well yes, I know it's both boring and extreme thread drift, but I thought that was the tactic we were employing now given that logical argument and a reality check isn't working!
I preferred his 3rd Album, Sing a Favourite Song personally. Sort of comfy, Saturday evening, cup of tea-type album. 
Last edited by just another jocky; 20th Dec 2012 at 11:13. Reason: commas vs semi-colons
At least now I know that Pink Floyd will never reform.
I actually disagree with the title of the thread. I think we were crazy ever to buy Harrier. Sure it did some good stuff once we had it, but it was precisely becasue we had it that we were able to buy toy carriers instead of proper ones and that meant we didn't have to field real fixed-wing jets at sea. Imagine if we'd had to find proper replacements for Phantom and Buccaneer. We wouldn't be in this ridiculous F35B mess now, that's for sure.
Glad it's gone. Once the Dave B is choppedn we'll all be able to get on with doing it properly again. No more jumping beans.
I actually disagree with the title of the thread. I think we were crazy ever to buy Harrier. Sure it did some good stuff once we had it, but it was precisely becasue we had it that we were able to buy toy carriers instead of proper ones and that meant we didn't have to field real fixed-wing jets at sea. Imagine if we'd had to find proper replacements for Phantom and Buccaneer. We wouldn't be in this ridiculous F35B mess now, that's for sure.
Glad it's gone. Once the Dave B is choppedn we'll all be able to get on with doing it properly again. No more jumping beans.
Ah, the troop entertainment girls!
They were in the Mess at Akrotiri once, accompanying Tom O'Connor. We all called him "Des". Took about 10 minutes till he got pissed off enough to storm out, conveniently forgetting to order the girls to follow him.
They were in the Mess at Akrotiri once, accompanying Tom O'Connor. We all called him "Des". Took about 10 minutes till he got pissed off enough to storm out, conveniently forgetting to order the girls to follow him.
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"Sure it did some good stuff once we had it, but it was precisely becasue we had it that we were able to buy toy carriers instead of proper ones and that meant we didn't have to field real fixed-wing jets at sea. Imagine if we'd had to find proper replacements for Phantom and Buccaneer"
Do you REALLY think that a full size carrier would have survived the budget cuts of the mid - 70's early 80's???
It was only because we could do carrier-lite that we had anything at all
Do you REALLY think that a full size carrier would have survived the budget cuts of the mid - 70's early 80's???
It was only because we could do carrier-lite that we had anything at all
If ETPS can safely and economically operate small numbers of foreign jets (such as the Alpha Jet or Grippen) then why cannot NFSF(FW) operate say a couple of borrowed AV8Bs
NFSF(FW) are a bunch of gash pilots that tool around in Hawks for no real reason anymore. Does that answer your question?
Now, back on track: Does anyone like Jaffa Cakes? I really like Jaffa Cakes but I prefer beer. Beer is nice. I once met a real navy pilot once and he was nice too, so I thought I would devote my time to posting about navy jets on the internet even though I have never worked with them. Maybe I can post a link to a navy pilot who once flew in the Falklands and has a balanced view of all things Joint in military aviation...
Jaffa cakes. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
XI(F) could dispose of a packet in, unsurprisingly, 11 seconds from closed packet to all swallowed.
Aircrew Rations RIP
Gala Pie & HP sauce....
Beer didn't last long neither...
XI(F) could dispose of a packet in, unsurprisingly, 11 seconds from closed packet to all swallowed.
Aircrew Rations RIP
Gala Pie & HP sauce....
Beer didn't last long neither...
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'NFSF(FW) are a bunch of gash pilots that tool around in Hawks for no real reason anymore. Does that answer your question?
Now, back on track: Does anyone like Jaffa Cakes? I really like Jaffa Cakes but I prefer beer. Beer is nice. I once met a real navy pilot once and he was nice too, so I thought I would devote my time to posting about navy jets on the internet even though I have never worked with them. Maybe I can post a link to a navy pilot who once flew in the Falklands and has a balanced view of all things Joint in military aviation...'
..and light blue wonder why the Military (FAA included) think they are c*nts?
Now, back on track: Does anyone like Jaffa Cakes? I really like Jaffa Cakes but I prefer beer. Beer is nice. I once met a real navy pilot once and he was nice too, so I thought I would devote my time to posting about navy jets on the internet even though I have never worked with them. Maybe I can post a link to a navy pilot who once flew in the Falklands and has a balanced view of all things Joint in military aviation...'
..and light blue wonder why the Military (FAA included) think they are c*nts?