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Puma Incedent Stanford Training Area

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Puma Incedent Stanford Training Area

Old 16th Sep 2010, 22:57
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Puma Incedent Stanford Training Area

Evening gents,
A quick question if anyone can help?

Does anyone remember an incedent involving a Puma about 1988 - 89 on Stanford Training Area?
I was there with some officer cadets on a night ex and a "No Duff" call came over the net

A T.A. Major had fell out off a Puma whilst it was about 200 feet up
Apparently it had came into the hover and the loady opened the door to look out as they do
The Major thought the aircraft had landed (it was pitch black outside) stood up passed the loady and jumped out
He was killed
I was talking to someone on another site who was on an OP and they thought someone had dropped a bergan from the Puma
IIRC no blame was attched to the crew of the Puma

Does anyone have anymore details and the name of the Major as someone from I know is doing some research on the incedent
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Old 16th Sep 2010, 23:28
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I wasn't involved but I do recall the accident, mainly because I might, in very slightly different circumstances, have been the pilot but I won't elaborate why.

On Pumas, both doors were/ are opened on short finals so the crewman can give his talkdown. The Major was possibly snoozing in the aircraft and had then been awakened by the cold air coming in after the first door was opened. The crewman moved across to the second door and subsequently heard a shout. As he turned, there was an empty seat..... Tragic.
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Old 16th Sep 2010, 23:44
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I was on MAOTs slightly after that, and that particular event was still being talked about. The descriptions given concur with my understanding. Sorry, don't know the unit involved, nor the deceased's name, but the story rings true.
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 08:41
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The pilot otherwise known as the grim reaper of helicopters and chipmunks was the captain as I recall. This was a tragic incident, so dragging up blame and old wounds could cause offence. Please be gentle. Talking to the crewman involved a few years later, he said that the passenger was 'itching to go' during the flight, I believe he stopped the rest of the stick following???
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 09:31
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Similar tale

Sorry for the thread slippage, but similar incident without the tragic ending:

In a previous incarnation as a Navy Sea King Pilot, I remember a training incident whilst working with some SBS (Special forces). They were practising rapid rope deployment from our helicopter to the top of an artificial ski slope (simulating the bridge wing of a ship). We came in at speed then did a fast stop, the crewman would deploy the rope and the grunts would eagerly grab said rope and abseil / slide down the 40' to the ground. Fly away and pick up the next stick, simple.

On a subsequent approach just as the crewman was kicking the tail end of the rope out of the door, we had a tip strike on a floodlight pole, changing the game plan suddenly to getting away from the ski slope and getting the helicopter safely back on the ground. Despite the vibration, or maybe because of it, The grunts were so geared up to jump out of the door, the crewman nearly got taken with them as he stood in the doorway trying to stop them! Was everyone in the back safely strapped in for that landing? I think not, but nothing broken or even bruised except the pilots ego.

Easy done and the crewman in the back has a very difficult job looking out for everyone on board as well as looking out. With two doors ... Impossible.
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 09:32
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I was on 230 Sqn at the time and it was one of our Cabs involved in the accident.

IIRC, the crewman opened the Stbd door at 200' on the approach to the "T" iaw night SOPs then went to do the port door. On turning back to get into the stbd door again, he had the chilling sight of an empty seat where previously said Maj had been sitting. At this point, another grunt was getting ready to go out the door but was grabbed and dumped back into his seat. Thankfully, the ac had a nitesun fitted as it was the only way they found him, but he was declared DOA at the hospital.

Que, police investigation with them being informed that manslaughter charges were on the cards if they were found to have been neglegent

Again, IIRC the BOI found that a difference between Army / RAF SOPs regarding when the troops deplane and actions post door opening ( the Army opened theirs on the ground + and on RAF SH you needed an executive command from the CM to egress - 2 different methods at the time) was a major factor in what was an operating hazards accident. Also the victim had indeed, been " itching" to get out and lead from the front. The crew were rightly not held to account as all 3 ( there were 2 pilots on this particular exercise) were flying again shortly after and were found to been totally correct in their actions. I do not recall much else and the above is based on 20 yo feedback - so do not attach any accuracy to it, sorry.

Last edited by c130jbloke; 17th Sep 2010 at 10:02.
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 10:54
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Not directly related to this event, but the brief to troops was always explicit about when to unhook. We always talked about the doors opening well above the ground AND the likelihood of overshooting if the crew didn't like the outlook. Obviously I wasn't at everyone else's brief, but trooping sorties were often the baby crews' first off the leash events, and we stuck to the plot.

Very sad, first I heard of it.

CG
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 12:28
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C130,

Are you sure it was a 230 cab ? My memory is that it was operating with 33 Sqdn. As cabs moved between the 2 sqdns occasionaly that may be where the confusion is.

Would 230 have been operating in Stamford in 89 ?
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 12:34
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This was a tragic incident, so dragging up blame and old wounds could cause offence.
Jayteeto,

Agreed but your first comment might well be seen as highly offensive to the pilot....
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 13:27
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Correct to the last post - there was and is no blame and had it not been for the quick reactions of the CM it would have been 2 killed.

It was a 230 Sqn Crew and cab.
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 13:38
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Thats what he called himself, plus it was his role as a grim reaper to aircraft!!
Point taken though
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 13:52
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JT2,

Yes, I do know said pilot, having served alongside him for about 3 years just prior to the accident and on another tour previous to that, too.
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 15:17
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I always considered that the Puma having two doors was a double-edged sword.
It was far more difficult to control entry/exit than on a Wessex and very easy to be in the "wrong" door.
The load/unload for 12 troops did not seem to be that much quicker and there was double the chance of someone heading towards the tail rotor!
Once you took into account the fixed undercarriage, tailwheel and engine response I felt the Wessex had significant operational advantages in NI, for trooping. (Sorry chaps!)
Also the Puma doors needed careful inspection and use, if they fell-off.....
lsh

(PS there was at least one stick-leader in NI who thought that the Wessex DID have a LH door, there was an anxious face at the bubble window, looking for the door handle!!!)
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 15:58
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That didn't take long! Turning into a 72 v 230 thread......
Next it will be 3200 and I don't need a scarf......
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 17:08
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Does anyone have anymore details and the name of the Major as someone from I know is doing some research on the incedent
The Thetford coroner is sure to have the details. What good will come of 'research' into this case? It happened, it was an accident, it was avoidable, and lessons have been learned. Worst of all, the Crewman was treated very badly by CivPol in the hours that followed and received little support from his Command chain. In short he was treated badly and more importantly, unfairly.

The door was probably opened at approx 300' agl which coincided with the standard landing procedures at that time. There is/was much speculation as to cause, and fatique/sleep/sudden arousal of the individual concerned is widely accepted as a likely cause. In any event, had he remained secure until cleared out (post landing) in accordance with taught procedures, the accident would not have happened. The events were unexpected and could not have been prevented by the Crewman. Human nature is that individuals concern themselves with what (they) could have been differant to prevent loss of life, but this particular crew can sleep soundly at night in the knowledge that they did nothing wrong. That is not to say that they do....
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 18:04
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The CM in question was harshly treated by the Police which made for one of the unpleasant aspects of the event. All the more so as it was not his fault. I recall him saying that the rozzer ic the investigation was definatly of the " gulity until proved more gulity " ilk. Apparently he thought that taking down a Puma crew was his fast track to great things, except that he could not get his head around RAF Puma SOPs and that, err the crew had followed them to the letter.

Is it just me, or does the previous post make no sense whatsoever ?
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 18:18
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Sorry just to clarify

I'm not after anyone pointing fingers or blame being attached to anyone either
I'm not out to upset famillies or those there at the time
It came about from one of those "I was there but thats all I know conversations"
I knew about the guy falling out and he was actually on the ground when he fell near their Op
He asked if I knew the name as he was going to the National Arboretum so I assume he was going to pay his respects whilst he was there
He looked on the internet and I asked some of my mates who were with me when it happened but we couldn't get the name
I thought I would pop on here and ask as I sometimes pop over to read some of he threads
So I thought why not ask what actually happened on one of the threads

However I am sorry if any offence is caused
It wasn't my aim to do that
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 19:43
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I wasn't there as one of those in the back and know nothing about the incident that sparked this thread but it was a very well reported incident at the time and one of those 'this has just happened' stories reiterated during training.

I saw someone nearly do the same thing from a French Puma at 200' above the deck when the French CM opened the doors and the Patrol Commander was keener than ever to get out - exercise in France, tired, bored of the noise...and keen to get on with the job.

The French CM grabbed our man just as he lunged for the door...

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Old 17th Sep 2010, 20:04
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That didn't take long! Turning into a 72 v 230 thread......
Next it will be 3200 and I don't need a scarf.....

Probably my fault for exceeding my brief!
I suggest that the accident would have been far less likely to have happened on a helicopter with a single cabin door and the crewman "guarding" it.
lsh
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Old 17th Sep 2010, 20:15
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Worst of all, the Crewman was treated very badly by CivPol in the hours that followed and received little support from his Command chain.
Surely, that would never happen!

CG
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