F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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F35 and Typhoon in Australia
The following are factual:
In 2000, BAES was offering Typhoon to DoD in the mid-2000's; at a price that was, and is now, realistic
F35 was being offered as stealthier and far more capable
F35 would be available in 2006 and if this was debatable, it would always be ahead of Typhoon, in delivery timescales
F35 would be at least 2/3 cost of Typhoon
These assertions from my friendly US counterpart in Canberra
John Howard went to the US, by himself, and was 'convinced' that F35 was the solution. All else was set aside. No more competition
I know, I was there. In the midst
Believe what you will.
In 2000, BAES was offering Typhoon to DoD in the mid-2000's; at a price that was, and is now, realistic
F35 was being offered as stealthier and far more capable
F35 would be available in 2006 and if this was debatable, it would always be ahead of Typhoon, in delivery timescales
F35 would be at least 2/3 cost of Typhoon
These assertions from my friendly US counterpart in Canberra
John Howard went to the US, by himself, and was 'convinced' that F35 was the solution. All else was set aside. No more competition
I know, I was there. In the midst
Believe what you will.
Last edited by jindabyne; 31st Oct 2017 at 22:10.
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I wondered when the drag queen aspect would open but as 'ORAC' said "it is behind him". Demo of the brake screen on the F-35 combat plane Defense Department Published on Jul 7, 2017
"On this video you can see the demonstration of the F-35 brake screen."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEzn7bc_kOg
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 2nd Nov 2017 at 20:44. Reason: add graphic then translation from NORSK to ???
The following are factual:
In 2000, BAES was offering Typhoon to DoD in the mid-2000's; at a price that was, and is now, realistic
F35 was being offered as stealthier and far more capable
F35 would be available in 2006 and if this was debatable, it would always be ahead of Typhoon, in delivery timescales
F35 would be at least 2/3 cost of Typhoon
These assertions from my friendly US counterpart in Canberra
John Howard went to the US, by himself, and was 'convinced' that F35 was the solution. All else was set aside. No more competition
I know, I was there. In the midst
Believe what you will.
In 2000, BAES was offering Typhoon to DoD in the mid-2000's; at a price that was, and is now, realistic
F35 was being offered as stealthier and far more capable
F35 would be available in 2006 and if this was debatable, it would always be ahead of Typhoon, in delivery timescales
F35 would be at least 2/3 cost of Typhoon
These assertions from my friendly US counterpart in Canberra
John Howard went to the US, by himself, and was 'convinced' that F35 was the solution. All else was set aside. No more competition
I know, I was there. In the midst
Believe what you will.
I believe that there was also some discussion of carrier capabilities. Huge fan of Typhoon but am disappointed it has not sold in far greater numbers but the cost has been prohibitive.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Costly US F-35 Fighter Jets Miss the Mark, Denmark Finds
To the dismay of Denmark's Air Force, which had been betting on F-35s replacingthe country's aging fleet, the National Audit Office has decided that the pricey war toy is overrated, arguing that the Defense Ministry has been far too optimistic in its evaluation. For Denmark, where the acquisition of the US F-35 fighter jets is set to become the largest-ever state purchase, the new report highlighting the shortcomings of its prized possession, is hardly good news.
The new fighter jets, which are expected to set Danish state coffers back DKK 66 billion ($10 billion), could actually yield much more modest performance than that stated by the Defense Ministry, the National Audit Office (NAO) found in a report. According to the NAO, the Defense Ministry has overestimated the amount of tasks the 27 new F-35 aircraft can handle. Another blunder regards how many hours the aircraft can spend in the air. While the Defense Ministry proceeded from a solid 250 hours a year, the same fighter jets only are airborne 168 and 210 hours in Norway and Holland respectively, Danish Radio reported.
"There are a couple of over-optimistic figures," Ole Wæver, a professor of international politics at the University of Copenhagen, said. According to Wæver, there are two important consequences. "First, some of those who have promoted the decision may well feel cheated. The other problem is that the aircraft we have purchased are unable to perform as expected," he explained.
Denmark's leading daily Berlingske suggested in an opinion piece that the newly-revealed shortcomings may force the country to buy more aircraft than the 27 initially decided, in addition to tarnishing the Armed Forces' reputation.
"The dishonest figures also reveal that both civil servants and ministers are willing to use fake marketing to promote an otherwise sensible political choice," Berlingske wrote.
The NAO's criticism came shortly before Parliament is to make a final decision on the purchase of the 27 new F-35 combat aircraft that will replace the 44 Danish F16 aircraft that have been in service since 1980s. The agreement on the new combat aircraft was concluded in June 2016 between the Liberals, the Social Liberals, the Liberal Alliance, the Danish People's Party and the Social Democrats.
Rasmus Jarlov, defense spokesman of the Conservatives, which did not support the agreement, said that the NAO's report was not surprising. "We reached the same conclusion last year. But it's good that the NAO can confirm that we were right," Jarlov said.
Despite the criticism of the ministry's assessment of the aircraft's capabilities, Social Democrat defense spokesman Henrik Dam Kristensen is confident in the decision.
"I have a lot of respect for the NAO, but when we talk about flying hours, it's very important to listen to people who are knowledgeable about aircraft technology," Henrik Dam Kristensen said. "I just believe that the combat aircraft department, which is manned with experts in the area, may be better at assessing this than the National Audit Office," he ventured.
To the dismay of Denmark's Air Force, which had been betting on F-35s replacingthe country's aging fleet, the National Audit Office has decided that the pricey war toy is overrated, arguing that the Defense Ministry has been far too optimistic in its evaluation. For Denmark, where the acquisition of the US F-35 fighter jets is set to become the largest-ever state purchase, the new report highlighting the shortcomings of its prized possession, is hardly good news.
The new fighter jets, which are expected to set Danish state coffers back DKK 66 billion ($10 billion), could actually yield much more modest performance than that stated by the Defense Ministry, the National Audit Office (NAO) found in a report. According to the NAO, the Defense Ministry has overestimated the amount of tasks the 27 new F-35 aircraft can handle. Another blunder regards how many hours the aircraft can spend in the air. While the Defense Ministry proceeded from a solid 250 hours a year, the same fighter jets only are airborne 168 and 210 hours in Norway and Holland respectively, Danish Radio reported.
"There are a couple of over-optimistic figures," Ole Wæver, a professor of international politics at the University of Copenhagen, said. According to Wæver, there are two important consequences. "First, some of those who have promoted the decision may well feel cheated. The other problem is that the aircraft we have purchased are unable to perform as expected," he explained.
Denmark's leading daily Berlingske suggested in an opinion piece that the newly-revealed shortcomings may force the country to buy more aircraft than the 27 initially decided, in addition to tarnishing the Armed Forces' reputation.
"The dishonest figures also reveal that both civil servants and ministers are willing to use fake marketing to promote an otherwise sensible political choice," Berlingske wrote.
The NAO's criticism came shortly before Parliament is to make a final decision on the purchase of the 27 new F-35 combat aircraft that will replace the 44 Danish F16 aircraft that have been in service since 1980s. The agreement on the new combat aircraft was concluded in June 2016 between the Liberals, the Social Liberals, the Liberal Alliance, the Danish People's Party and the Social Democrats.
Rasmus Jarlov, defense spokesman of the Conservatives, which did not support the agreement, said that the NAO's report was not surprising. "We reached the same conclusion last year. But it's good that the NAO can confirm that we were right," Jarlov said.
Despite the criticism of the ministry's assessment of the aircraft's capabilities, Social Democrat defense spokesman Henrik Dam Kristensen is confident in the decision.
"I have a lot of respect for the NAO, but when we talk about flying hours, it's very important to listen to people who are knowledgeable about aircraft technology," Henrik Dam Kristensen said. "I just believe that the combat aircraft department, which is manned with experts in the area, may be better at assessing this than the National Audit Office," he ventured.
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First 3 Norway based F-35As delivered to RNoAF today at Ørland.
In Norwegian
The RNoAF already have 7 at Luke AFB for training.
In Norwegian
The RNoAF already have 7 at Luke AFB for training.
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""I just believe that the combat aircraft department, which is manned with experts in the area, may be better at assessing this than the National Audit Office,""
Now that is a new definition of an optomist....................
Now that is a new definition of an optomist....................
Costly US F-35 Fighter Jets Miss the Mark, Denmark Finds
To the dismay of Denmark's Air Force, which had been betting on F-35s replacingthe country's aging fleet, the National Audit Office has decided that the pricey war toy is overrated, arguing that the Defense Ministry has been far too optimistic in its evaluation. For Denmark, where the acquisition of the US F-35 fighter jets is set to become the largest-ever state purchase, the new report highlighting the shortcomings of its prized possession, is hardly good news.
The new fighter jets, which are expected to set Danish state coffers back DKK 66 billion ($10 billion), could actually yield much more modest performance than that stated by the Defense Ministry, the National Audit Office (NAO) found in a report. According to the NAO, the Defense Ministry has overestimated the amount of tasks the 27 new F-35 aircraft can handle. Another blunder regards how many hours the aircraft can spend in the air. While the Defense Ministry proceeded from a solid 250 hours a year, the same fighter jets only are airborne 168 and 210 hours in Norway and Holland respectively, Danish Radio reported.
"There are a couple of over-optimistic figures," Ole Wæver, a professor of international politics at the University of Copenhagen, said. According to Wæver, there are two important consequences. "First, some of those who have promoted the decision may well feel cheated. The other problem is that the aircraft we have purchased are unable to perform as expected," he explained.
Denmark's leading daily Berlingske suggested in an opinion piece that the newly-revealed shortcomings may force the country to buy more aircraft than the 27 initially decided, in addition to tarnishing the Armed Forces' reputation.
"The dishonest figures also reveal that both civil servants and ministers are willing to use fake marketing to promote an otherwise sensible political choice," Berlingske wrote.
The NAO's criticism came shortly before Parliament is to make a final decision on the purchase of the 27 new F-35 combat aircraft that will replace the 44 Danish F16 aircraft that have been in service since 1980s. The agreement on the new combat aircraft was concluded in June 2016 between the Liberals, the Social Liberals, the Liberal Alliance, the Danish People's Party and the Social Democrats.
Rasmus Jarlov, defense spokesman of the Conservatives, which did not support the agreement, said that the NAO's report was not surprising. "We reached the same conclusion last year. But it's good that the NAO can confirm that we were right," Jarlov said.
Despite the criticism of the ministry's assessment of the aircraft's capabilities, Social Democrat defense spokesman Henrik Dam Kristensen is confident in the decision.
"I have a lot of respect for the NAO, but when we talk about flying hours, it's very important to listen to people who are knowledgeable about aircraft technology," Henrik Dam Kristensen said. "I just believe that the combat aircraft department, which is manned with experts in the area, may be better at assessing this than the National Audit Office," he ventured.
To the dismay of Denmark's Air Force, which had been betting on F-35s replacingthe country's aging fleet, the National Audit Office has decided that the pricey war toy is overrated, arguing that the Defense Ministry has been far too optimistic in its evaluation. For Denmark, where the acquisition of the US F-35 fighter jets is set to become the largest-ever state purchase, the new report highlighting the shortcomings of its prized possession, is hardly good news.
The new fighter jets, which are expected to set Danish state coffers back DKK 66 billion ($10 billion), could actually yield much more modest performance than that stated by the Defense Ministry, the National Audit Office (NAO) found in a report. According to the NAO, the Defense Ministry has overestimated the amount of tasks the 27 new F-35 aircraft can handle. Another blunder regards how many hours the aircraft can spend in the air. While the Defense Ministry proceeded from a solid 250 hours a year, the same fighter jets only are airborne 168 and 210 hours in Norway and Holland respectively, Danish Radio reported.
"There are a couple of over-optimistic figures," Ole Wæver, a professor of international politics at the University of Copenhagen, said. According to Wæver, there are two important consequences. "First, some of those who have promoted the decision may well feel cheated. The other problem is that the aircraft we have purchased are unable to perform as expected," he explained.
Denmark's leading daily Berlingske suggested in an opinion piece that the newly-revealed shortcomings may force the country to buy more aircraft than the 27 initially decided, in addition to tarnishing the Armed Forces' reputation.
"The dishonest figures also reveal that both civil servants and ministers are willing to use fake marketing to promote an otherwise sensible political choice," Berlingske wrote.
The NAO's criticism came shortly before Parliament is to make a final decision on the purchase of the 27 new F-35 combat aircraft that will replace the 44 Danish F16 aircraft that have been in service since 1980s. The agreement on the new combat aircraft was concluded in June 2016 between the Liberals, the Social Liberals, the Liberal Alliance, the Danish People's Party and the Social Democrats.
Rasmus Jarlov, defense spokesman of the Conservatives, which did not support the agreement, said that the NAO's report was not surprising. "We reached the same conclusion last year. But it's good that the NAO can confirm that we were right," Jarlov said.
Despite the criticism of the ministry's assessment of the aircraft's capabilities, Social Democrat defense spokesman Henrik Dam Kristensen is confident in the decision.
"I have a lot of respect for the NAO, but when we talk about flying hours, it's very important to listen to people who are knowledgeable about aircraft technology," Henrik Dam Kristensen said. "I just believe that the combat aircraft department, which is manned with experts in the area, may be better at assessing this than the National Audit Office," he ventured.
Actually I'd suggest the final quote is the key one here. Mr Kristensen makes a very fair point. It's not blind optimism to suggest that a team of accountants may not have the best grasp of the technicalities of air combat capability.
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well "experts" haven't been very good at estimating how long it would take to build, what the cost is going to be or the actual performance figures have they??
And you have the 787, the US Air Tanker (and we'll not go near the Nimrod) as other examples ............................. the list is VERY long
And you have the 787, the US Air Tanker (and we'll not go near the Nimrod) as other examples ............................. the list is VERY long
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Ahh, those experts!
But Gates said the Air Force can afford to have fewer big fighters, because the U.S. has such a huge margin of superiority over any potential rival, in the air. "By 2020, the United States is projected to have nearly 2,500 manned combat aircraft of all kinds" in the Air Force, Navy and Marines, Gates said. "Of those, nearly 1,100 will be the most advanced fifth-generation F-35s and F-22s. China, by contrast, is projected to have no fifth-generation aircraft by 2020. And by 2025, the gap only widens."
https://www.wired.com/2009/08/air-fo...light-fighter/
But Gates said the Air Force can afford to have fewer big fighters, because the U.S. has such a huge margin of superiority over any potential rival, in the air. "By 2020, the United States is projected to have nearly 2,500 manned combat aircraft of all kinds" in the Air Force, Navy and Marines, Gates said. "Of those, nearly 1,100 will be the most advanced fifth-generation F-35s and F-22s. China, by contrast, is projected to have no fifth-generation aircraft by 2020. And by 2025, the gap only widens."
https://www.wired.com/2009/08/air-fo...light-fighter/
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LM F-35 Fast Facts 01 Nov 2017 PDF: "110,000 flight hours - 250 F-35 aircraft delivered"
https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa81...s-nov_2017.pdf (1.2Mb)
https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa81...s-nov_2017.pdf (1.2Mb)
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Sorry, Spaz, but how does that translate into 960 JSFs* in US service by 2020? And LM somehow overlooks the fact that a large and as yet undetermined fraction of those 250 airplanes will never be combat-ready.
*"1100 5gen" - 140 combat-capable F-22s
*"1100 5gen" - 140 combat-capable F-22s
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I'm not sorry. Also it is TBD how some F-35s how/will/when will be upgraded. Some only require software updates. I'm not interested in your predictions - just the facts ma'am - just the fast facts.
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OK, Spaz - Here is a fact. The DoD has funded 422 LRIP F-35s through FY18 (deliveries completed during 2020, on the usual pattern).
You can check it here...
Office of the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)
...although you might not, since it's harder work than citing manufacturer claims.
Subtract from that the very early aircraft that everyone understood would never be operational, the early LRIP blocks (TBD) that cannot be economically brought to service standard, and however many airplanes are still stuck waiting for upgrades in 2020... even if that total is zero, which it is not, Gates' 2009 prediction is still far, far off the mark.
And his prediction for 2025 will be even less accurate since the affordable annual quantity of airplanes is some 30 aircraft lower than promised in 2009.
You can check it here...
Office of the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)
...although you might not, since it's harder work than citing manufacturer claims.
Subtract from that the very early aircraft that everyone understood would never be operational, the early LRIP blocks (TBD) that cannot be economically brought to service standard, and however many airplanes are still stuck waiting for upgrades in 2020... even if that total is zero, which it is not, Gates' 2009 prediction is still far, far off the mark.
And his prediction for 2025 will be even less accurate since the affordable annual quantity of airplanes is some 30 aircraft lower than promised in 2009.
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The dishonest figures also reveal that both civil servants and ministers are willing to use fake marketing to promote an otherwise sensible political choice,"
Berlingske wrote
LMFAO.
Berlingske wrote
LMFAO.
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I'm not going to jump up and down about any predictions - even those made eight years ago - just the facks maam - nuttin' but facks. Whine all you whish - wot no pizza ovens?
Meanwhile: Trump could let the UAE buy F-35 jets 04 Nov 2017 Any predictions here?
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...buy-f-35-jets/
Meanwhile: Trump could let the UAE buy F-35 jets 04 Nov 2017 Any predictions here?
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...buy-f-35-jets/
