F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

[ORAC]

What a mess they’ve got themselves into on this program - task national security and compromise of the F-35 against Russian SAW systems - or watch the price go up and the program slip, again.....

https://www.defensenews.com/congress...-f-35-program/

WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Jim Mattis is urging Congress not to bar Turkey from purchasing the Lockheed Martin F-35, arguing that to do so would trigger an international “supply chain disruption” resulting in delays and higher costs for the $100 million aircraft.

“At this time, I oppose removal of Turkey from the F-35 program,” Mattis said in a letter to lawmakers negotiating over the 2019 National Defense Authorization Act. Turkey, a NATO ally who has invested $1.25 billion in the program since 2002, plans to buy 100 aircraft. “If the Turkish supply chain was disrupted today, it would result in an aircraft production break, delaying delivery of 50-75 F-35s, and would take approximately 18-24 months to re-source parts and recover.”

Pentagon plans call for acquiring a total of 2,456 F-35s. Allies are expected to purchase hundreds of additional F-35s, and eight nations, including Japan, South Korea, Denmark and Norway, are cost-sharing partners in the program with the U.S.

The Senate’s defense policy and appropriations bills include language to delay sales of the jet to Turkey over its plans to buy the Russian S-400 air defense system and its detainment of American pastor Andrew Brunson.

[jindabyne]

Rhino ---

Quite a lively display put on by the F-35A at RIAT today...

That was not the opinion of all of those ex and current aviators around me in the Aviation Club at RIAT on the 13th. In comparison with Typhoon, Rafale and F18, it underperformed noticeably, leaving us very underwhelmed. The general view was we'll have to wait and see (obviously). Comments from F35 pilots at Marham that there are many outstanding features that cannot yet be revealed will hopefully transpire.

In 1999, when I was trying to seduce the RAAF with Typhoon, in Canberra, the F35 team appeared on scene, asserting that their product would be significantly cheaper than Typhoon, far less time to IOC, and with far superior 5th generation capability. The first two of these have proved to be false (even taking all of Eurofighter history into account), with the latter far from substantiated at this point. But, we are committed, along with the carriers, and I hope (with a little trepidation) that the confidence of the Marham aircrew will be justified.

[XR219]

Originally Posted by Vortex_Generator

What is the UK designation for the F35 - FA, GR, FGR etc?

A mystery, as far as I can make out!

If the RAF's own website is anything to go by, they seem to have given up on any kind of coherent designation system anyway; the aircraft types are listed using a random mixture of civvy, US and UK nomenclature, e.g. "Airbus H135 Juno", "Atlas (A400M)", "E-3D", "Leonardo GrandNew", "Texan T MK1", "Tornado GR4"...

[glad rag]

Jump jets,err, jump.
However with a flourish the mod have instantly increased the operational ability of the current F35b at Marham.

quote

The UK’s new F-35 multi role combat jets

well let's see these multi roles in action then.
.
.
.
.
meanwhile....Jump jets jump.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/f-35-jets-use-new-vertical-landing-pads-at-raf-marham-for-the-first-time

[KenV]

Originally Posted by glad rag

The UK’s new F-35 multi role combat jets.
well let's see these multi roles in action then.

Hmmmm. So far I've read accounts of the F-35 doing air-to-ground, air-to-air, and electronic reconnaissance missions in various exercises.
And I've heard accounts/rumors of Israeli F-35s doing air-to-ground, electronic recon and active jamming in combat.
I don't think there's anyone remotely credible that doubts that the F-35 is a multi-role platform. And that includes the B model.

[glad rag]

Apposite KenV, apposite.

Originally Posted by KenV

Hmmmm. So far I've read accounts of the F-35 doing air-to-ground, air-to-air, and electronic reconnaissance missions in various exercises.
And I've heard accounts/rumors of Israeli F-35s doing air-to-ground, electronic recon and active jamming in combat.
I don't think there's anyone remotely credible that doubts that the F-35 is a multi-role platform. And that includes the B model.

Of course KenV, of course, the 'ole strawman yet again...now where are your actual, hard, facts of operational multi role usage at this timeframe, not will be but right now, from the 300 or so F35 built and paid, for then??

USMC IOC debacle is really not a good place to go BTW..

[ORAC]

It would seem the IAF priority purchases for the next decade are CH-47/V-22 to Replace their CH-53s; KC-46 tankers........ and new model F-15s rather than F-35s......

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...s-firm-boeing/

https://www.snafu-solomon.com/2018/0...uilding-f.html

[KenV]

Originally Posted by glad rag

Of course KenV, of course, the 'ole strawman yet again...now where are your actual, hard, facts of operational multi role usage at this timeframe, not will be but right now, from the 300 or so F35 built and paid, for then?? USMC IOC debacle is really not a good place to go BTW..

Hmmmm. USAF declared F-35 IOC back in 2016, two years ago. Back then, USAF's declaration included the following "actual, hard, facts" regarding the capabiltiies of their F-35s: "capable of global deployment to provide basic close-air support, air interdiction, and limited suppression and destruction of enemy air defense missions." That's three roles right there. Each increment of software has brought and will bring additional capability.

And BTW, no one but you suggested anything about a strawman. You made that up. Further, not a single credible source anywhere has made the remotest suggestion that the F-35 is NOT a multi-role aircraft. So where are YOUR "actual, hard, facts" that the F-35 is single role. You have none because there are none.

[glad rag]

Originally Posted by KenV

Hmmmm. USAF declared F-35 IOC back in 2016, two years ago. Back then, USAF's declaration included the following "actual, hard, facts" regarding the capabiltiies of their F-35s: "capable of global deployment to provide basic close-air support, air interdiction, and limited suppression and destruction of enemy air defense missions." That's three roles right there. Each increment of software has brought and will bring additional capability.

And BTW, no one but you suggested anything about a strawman. You made that up. Further, not a single credible source anywhere has made the remotest suggestion that the F-35 is NOT a multi-role aircraft. So where are YOUR "actual, hard, facts" that the F-35 is single role. You have none because there are none.

So getting back to my post, what operational multirole usage are the 300 odd completed F35's being used right now?

Can't really put it much simpler that that.

Hope this clarifies things in your mind.

[Rhino power]

Next 5 F-35Bs for the UK due 31/7/18

According to Scramble Magazine's fb newsfeed, the next 5 F-35Bs for the RAF/RN are due this Tuesday...

Heads up RAF Marham !

The second batch of F-35Bs (five aircraft) is expected on Tuesday 31 July 2018. Of course weather conditions and availability for crossing the Atlantic are subject to this.

The time of arrival is unknown at this moment, but most probably around the same time (20:00 hrs LT) as the delivery in June 2018.

And an update from today... (29th)

Update F-35B delivery to RAF Marham !

Voyager tankers on their way to the USA for the F-35B delivery coming Tuesday. Aircraft involved are ZZ334 "Ascot 9301" and ZZ333 "Ascot 9302".

-RP

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by glad rag

So getting back to my post, what operational multirole usage are the 300 odd completed F35's being used right now?

As we get older, forgetting things happens.
The F-35 was built to compete for the JSF requirement. The JSF requirement was separate from the F-22 (which was optimized for the fighter/air superiority role). Before the LM proposed vehicle won the competition, the JSF (which is what the F-35 is) was from It's Inception a multi role aircraft by the requirements document and by design (and of course that design required tradeoffs...). Attack and fighter roles required to be fulfilled, (and IMO optimized for neither ...).
You may also recall another multi role aircraft, the AV-8B, and various other versions of the Harrier. It was able to do air to air, but was it optimized for it? Hmm, I think not.

F-35 is by definition multirole from the first pencil mark on a clean sheet of paper at program inception. This is true regardless of how much personal hate you have for the program. Similarly, the F/A 18 of decades ago also had its haters: it had to replace the A-7 and the F-4 originally, and eventually the f-14. It was hardly optimized for the fleet defense role that F-14 was, but as a multi role aircraft it does well enough). The A-12 was supposed to replace the pure attack role of the A-6, but that died its own horrible death for its own reasons. That aircraft was optimized for attack/Strike, not as a fighter.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by glad rag

So getting back to my post, what operational multirole usage are the 300 odd completed F35's being used right now?

Hilarious. Replace "F35's" with "Typhoon" or "Tornado" or "Rafale" and you'd have the same problem. Those are all multirole aircraft by design and capability. How they are being used at this moment says nothing about what they are designed to do and capable of.

We all understand you're an F-35 hater. We get that. But making the transparently specious claim that F-35 is not multirole destroys what little credibility remains.

[glad rag]

Originally Posted by KenV

Hilarious. Replace "F35's" with "Typhoon" or "Tornado" or "Rafale" and you'd have the same problem. Those are all multirole aircraft by design and capability. How they are being used at this moment says nothing about what they are designed to do and capable of.

We all understand you're an F-35 hater. We get that. But making the transparently specious claim that F-35 is not multirole destroys what little credibility remains.

So you are unable to provide us with anything to back up your assumption that the number of +300 ? F35 so far delivered are operationally " multi role" and are in fact "delivering the goods" as we type.



"We all understand you're an F-35 hater."

Wrong. It's the LIES that I dislike.

[KenV]

Originally Posted by glad rag

Wrong. It's the LIES that I dislike.

"LIES"? Really? Coming from you, that's hilarious. I repeat, NO ONE remotely credible doubts that the F-35 is multi-role, just as no one remotely credible doubts that the F-15E and the F/A-18E/F are multi-role. Indeed F-35 just performed a CAS evaluation against the A-10 so that's yet one more role beyond the half dozen or more already identified.

[ACW342]

Count me out of the argy bargy above but an old British saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind in relation to multirole anything.

[sandiego89]

Most modern "fighters" are multirole. Just because they may not be masters at anything does not make them worthless. Are they good or very good at multiple things? Then that may be good enough. The F-4 really started the trend, and most will acknowledge it was not a master at anything, but was surely quite capable in many roles. Most others have followed this trend, F-16 (by the C), F-14 (eventually), Su-27, Mirage family, Rafale, Typhoon, F/A-18, Grippen. Even the F-22, which is a master at air-to-air got other roles.

glad rag: what operational multirole usage are the 300 odd completed F35's being used right now?

Glad Rag, combat is not required to demonstrate a capability. It can surely help validate a weapons system, but is not required. The F-35 has been conducting training, exercises and operational deployments as a "multi-role" aircraft and likely combat use by Israel. Do you desire more combat to prove something?

The Red Flag exercises are likely the most realistic exercises in the west, and while I am sure there is some hype in the headline and the article this article indicated that the F-35 conducted "strike" "air-to-air", "directed standoff weapons from B-1B heavy bombers" "air-superiority" "acted as a mini-AWACS", "destroyed five air to surface threats. in one sortie.."

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/2...ir-force-says/

So Air-to-Air, Air-to ground, SEAD, ELINT.....I'd call that demonstrated multi-role.

[Turbine D]

KenV,

I repeat, NO ONE remotely credible doubts that the F-35 is multi-role, just as no one remotely credible doubts that the F-15E and the F/A-18E/F are multi-role. Indeed F-35 just performed a CAS evaluation against the A-10 so that's yet one more role beyond the half dozen or more already identified.

Of course it is multi-role, those in the military and Lockheed-Martin say that it is and they came up with three models to prove it is and together with the Pentagon, they moved the goalposts several times to make sure it is...

You must not be a believer in the Dwight D. Eisenhower speech in 1961 on the Military-Industrial Complex:

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.

In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite.

All the elements of the F-35 Program are contained in the above Eisenhower's speech.

“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

[LowObservable]

Almost every fighter today is a bit multi-role. Even the MiG-31 can toss a Kinzhal at you.

As for the F-35, it was designed to a requirement that was described contemporaneously, by the program boss, as 70% A2G and 30% A2A. For instance, the customer didn't ask for supercruise, for an all-aspect IR AAM to be carried internally, or for superior air combat maneuverability to the F-16 or F/A-18.

There's also the question of how the aircraft is to be used. If, for instance, the Marines are to attempt an amphibious landing against an adversary with a couple of squadrons of Sukhois, they're going to go in with a CVN and its air wing. Six fighters in an MEU are simply not enough to do serious A2A and any A2G. It's been explained here (or in the carrier thread) that the RN plans to do fleet air defense with the T45. I don't hear much from the US Navy about the wonders of the F-35C in A2A.

This is nothing unusual: most operators of the F-15E and later variants task and train for A2G.

[Heathrow Harry]

Originally Posted by ACW342

Count me out of the argy bargy above but an old British saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind in relation to multirole anything.

No-one - not even the USA - can afford multiple state of the art designs at one time.......

we're well along the curve predicted by Norman Ralph Augustine..............

[Rhino power]

F-35 finally cancelled!

Well, just for Turkey, maybe, pending a revue...

No Stealth For You!

-RP