F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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All this stuff about fans, doors and hinges makes it clear once again - the only truly successful design for VSTOL is the Harrier style vectored nozzle system. The unnecessary complication of lift fans has always (ultimately) proved to be a poor second.
Scrap F35B and save us all some money.
Scrap F35B and save us all some money.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Although the production line is closed, if the USMC and others want to stay in the VSTOL business, the its not impossible to reopen it. Seems like common sense to me. The F35B is overkill for the USMC, likewise the Italians and Spanish. I suspect this will be explored. AV-8B Harrier II++ anyone? 
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AV-8B Harrier II++ anyone?
Is there an echo in here ?!
Talking of lift fans and history, might be time to dust off and modernise some of the P-1216 ideas.
I recall one or two very sexy looking proposals, using a 3-post twin boom layout, big ( reheated ? ) aft nozzle a la F-35, and variable shutters for forward lift thrust instead of draggy front nozzles.
Even forward swept wings were considered, 'all' that would need adding to the mix is stealth - or is it worth the cost; financial, R&D time and performance ?
Is there an echo in here ?!
Talking of lift fans and history, might be time to dust off and modernise some of the P-1216 ideas.
I recall one or two very sexy looking proposals, using a 3-post twin boom layout, big ( reheated ? ) aft nozzle a la F-35, and variable shutters for forward lift thrust instead of draggy front nozzles.
Even forward swept wings were considered, 'all' that would need adding to the mix is stealth - or is it worth the cost; financial, R&D time and performance ?
Suspicion breeds confidence
or an opportunity for BWoS to dust off the P1154? I know JF has reservations about the "Fire Breathing Monster" but at the time, the manufacturer had confidence in it. It only got killed because the navy really wanted the Phantom.
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Navaleye wrote
I'm not sure why it would be necessary - the point about warmed up AV-8B++ is that it is a firmly subsonic attack platform, albeit with a radar and limited AMRAAM capability. In other words, exactly what is required within the MAGTAF / MEU mission set and ConOps of supporting an opposed landing when the air threat is not great enough to warrant the dispatch of CVN. Let's not get started again on the logic of the ConOps.
Ah the BS100! I know practically nothing about this beastie. Was it simply an enlarged Pegasus with hot front nozzles - ie, still based on an Orpheus core? Or was it a fresh design optimised for supersonic VSTOL operations?
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or an opportunity for BWoS to dust off the P1154?
I know JF has reservations about the "Fire Breathing Monster"
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Think the BS100 was a lot bigger, and most definitely a hot front, which of course runs straight into some of the snags of the F-35B by a different route, + hot gas re-ingestion in a big way.
I mentioned this to an RN Engineering Officer who somehow contacted me asking 'if PCB had ever been thought of'.
When I described this he was amazed, and on relaying it reported back that even his instructors had never heard of it - depressing !
Photo's from 'Harrier' by Bill Gunston.
I mentioned this to an RN Engineering Officer who somehow contacted me asking 'if PCB had ever been thought of'.
When I described this he was amazed, and on relaying it reported back that even his instructors had never heard of it - depressing !
Photo's from 'Harrier' by Bill Gunston.
Last edited by Double Zero; 7th Jan 2011 at 14:32.
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Errr, well it's got a pointy end and a chin intake, but I have a sneaking feeling that'd been come up with at some stage previously; I'll leave it to others to judge whether, if that was in any way an input to the Europhoon, a waste or not...
Nice artwork though, not seen that one before !
Nice artwork though, not seen that one before !
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The P1154 HAD to be supersonic because that's what senior officers in the RAF & FAA wanted - not something dragging along at M 0.95 - hell, you might as well have reordered Hunters!! And we didn't jointhe services to fly old kit
You see the same attitudes in the USAF these days - it has to go fast, very fast even tho ' all dog fights are subsonic...........
You see the same attitudes in the USAF these days - it has to go fast, very fast even tho ' all dog fights are subsonic...........
The profile art is great, but even the artist admits....
I've taken a few artistic licenses here and there that result in this illustration deviating in the details from what the P.1216 might have actually looked like, but the essential elements are there.
Other P.1216 fantasy profiles are at the following.
'Flights of Fantasy: What if the P.1216 went into production?'
FLIGHTS OF FANTASY: What if the P.1216 went into production?
TJ
I've taken a few artistic licenses here and there that result in this illustration deviating in the details from what the P.1216 might have actually looked like, but the essential elements are there.
Other P.1216 fantasy profiles are at the following.
'Flights of Fantasy: What if the P.1216 went into production?'
FLIGHTS OF FANTASY: What if the P.1216 went into production?
TJ
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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Even forward swept wings were considered
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Willard
Don't wish to be rude to my elder and better but I worked there at the time and while we had models of a forward swept wing design the mock-up you saw was probably the 1216 which did not have forward sweep.
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And more on the problems for Dave-B...
Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal
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Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal
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More on the F35...
F-35 looking more like white elephant - Yahoo! News
Looks like this turkey of an airplane is even too expensive and trouble-prone for the US DoD.
Should be scrapped, poste haste.
And, for those that think I am personally hard on the RAF...the USAF can't get it right either.
In any cost/benefit analysis...the F35 is a dog and a half.
F-35 looking more like white elephant - Yahoo! News
Looks like this turkey of an airplane is even too expensive and trouble-prone for the US DoD.
Should be scrapped, poste haste.
And, for those that think I am personally hard on the RAF...the USAF can't get it right either.
In any cost/benefit analysis...the F35 is a dog and a half.
While not wishing to condone high-spending programmes across the board, this has to be seen in context of $65Bn prog cost for less than 200 F22 - vs $350Bn for 2500 F35. And lets not do the B2!
What has Tiffy cost for 650 ish airframes?
It's not necessarily Dave that's the problem - the procurement system is a challenge all it's own.....
What has Tiffy cost for 650 ish airframes?
It's not necessarily Dave that's the problem - the procurement system is a challenge all it's own.....
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It's not dead yet!
I'm sure that the US DoD will make JSF as a programme work eventually; indeed the USAF doesn't have much of an alternative, so Dave-A is going to be made to work, even though it will serve in much smaller numbers than the existing F-16 fleets. I'm also confident that the USN will also get Dave-C to work, not least because bureaucratically the USN is not going to want to surrender the LO game exclusively to the USAF.
Dave-B is, however, dead jet walking as far as I can see. Too expensive, too complicated, but most importantly, the ConOps and the mission set makes no sense at all.
S41
Dave-B is, however, dead jet walking as far as I can see. Too expensive, too complicated, but most importantly, the ConOps and the mission set makes no sense at all.
S41