F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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The four corners program was certainly interesting, although somewhat swayed towards the anti F35 side.
Most interesting parts for me was ;
-the idea of a mixed fleet being back on the table (Australia -> 48F35 + 48SH)
-the recognition of what prices are going to do once order volumes decrease (the death spiral)
-General Bogdan acknowledging that it could well be possible that some of its capabilities have to be forfeited ,although he didn't directly said so this was exactly the case, he certainly indicated that it could be an issue with his Chevy/Ferrari remark.
-Tom Burbage's statements made during his last visit to Australia that now seem to be nothing more than hollow phrases.
-the acknowledgement that the whole purchasing process was corrupted from the very beginning.
A no-competition entry into a paper program with a lot of empty promises made by the supplier towards the clients setting up mechanisms that make the clients dependant from the very beginning till the very end while basically keeping all high tech and expertise info for themselves, doing all this relying on a lot of people in the participating countries that are so far up LM's ass (pardon my French) that it becomes nauseating to see.
I've even seen it on this board where some implying that one of the benefits of this F35 is that a lot of military personnel currently serving on this project can later join the ranks of Bae and LM as a follow up career.
In many parts of government that would be considered a very clear form of corruption, normally it would be impossible for an involved government worker to go and work immediately for a supplier he worked together with while still being enrolled on the government payroll without respecting a pre set time-frame where they cannot work for said supplier (or sometimes even in the same sector).
Too many politicians, Generals and strategically placed higher officers or defence contract workers change too quickly from one side to the other.
Eg, Jack de Vries first the second in command in the Dutch DoD (secretary to the minister) and immediately afterwards goes working for the company, Hill &Knowlton, that does the PR for the JSF.
or:Robert Greenwald: The Real Scandal Involving Generals
...
Most interesting parts for me was ;
-the idea of a mixed fleet being back on the table (Australia -> 48F35 + 48SH)
-the recognition of what prices are going to do once order volumes decrease (the death spiral)
-General Bogdan acknowledging that it could well be possible that some of its capabilities have to be forfeited ,although he didn't directly said so this was exactly the case, he certainly indicated that it could be an issue with his Chevy/Ferrari remark.
-Tom Burbage's statements made during his last visit to Australia that now seem to be nothing more than hollow phrases.
-the acknowledgement that the whole purchasing process was corrupted from the very beginning.
A no-competition entry into a paper program with a lot of empty promises made by the supplier towards the clients setting up mechanisms that make the clients dependant from the very beginning till the very end while basically keeping all high tech and expertise info for themselves, doing all this relying on a lot of people in the participating countries that are so far up LM's ass (pardon my French) that it becomes nauseating to see.
I've even seen it on this board where some implying that one of the benefits of this F35 is that a lot of military personnel currently serving on this project can later join the ranks of Bae and LM as a follow up career.
In many parts of government that would be considered a very clear form of corruption, normally it would be impossible for an involved government worker to go and work immediately for a supplier he worked together with while still being enrolled on the government payroll without respecting a pre set time-frame where they cannot work for said supplier (or sometimes even in the same sector).
Too many politicians, Generals and strategically placed higher officers or defence contract workers change too quickly from one side to the other.
Eg, Jack de Vries first the second in command in the Dutch DoD (secretary to the minister) and immediately afterwards goes working for the company, Hill &Knowlton, that does the PR for the JSF.
or:Robert Greenwald: The Real Scandal Involving Generals
Between 2009 and 2011, at least nine of the top-level generals and admirals who retired took positions with these five companies. In fact, 70 percent of the 108 three-and-four star generals and admirals who retired during this time period took jobs with defence contractors or consultants.
The business of Generals taking jobs with military contractors is a difficult one. Where the heck else are they supposed to work?
Ever tried the "The military gave me transferable skills" argument in a job application recently? I have - gets you nowhere, or worse.
Equally, we don't want second-rate equipment because some General wants a cushy paycheck for taking overseas jollies twice a month.
The mere fact that lots of Generals take contractor jobs is just that. A fact, not evidence of corruption.
Ever tried the "The military gave me transferable skills" argument in a job application recently? I have - gets you nowhere, or worse.
Equally, we don't want second-rate equipment because some General wants a cushy paycheck for taking overseas jollies twice a month.
The mere fact that lots of Generals take contractor jobs is just that. A fact, not evidence of corruption.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 18th Feb 2013 at 16:18.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Time: The Most Expensive Weapon Ever Built
Marine Major Aric "Walleye" Liberman was uncharacteristically modest for a Navy SEAL turned fighter pilot. He had just landed an F-35--one of the 2,457 jets the Pentagon plans to buy for $400 billion, making it the costliest weapons program in human history--at its initial operational base late last year. Amid celebratory hoopla, he declined photographers' requests to give a thumbs-up for the cameras that sunny day in Yuma, Ariz. "No, no, no," he demurred with a smile.
Liberman's reticence was understandable. For while the Marines hailed his arrival as a sign that their initial F-35 squadron is now operational, there's one sticking point. "It's an operational squadron," a Marine spokesman said. "The aircraft is not operational."
The F-35, designed as the U.S. military's lethal hunter for 21st century skies, has become the hunted, a poster child for Pentagon profligacy in a new era of tightening budgets. Instead of the stars and stripes of the U.S. Air Force emblazoned on its fuselage, it might as well have a bull's-eye..........
The $360 Billion Gorilla in the Sequestration Debate
Marine Major Aric "Walleye" Liberman was uncharacteristically modest for a Navy SEAL turned fighter pilot. He had just landed an F-35--one of the 2,457 jets the Pentagon plans to buy for $400 billion, making it the costliest weapons program in human history--at its initial operational base late last year. Amid celebratory hoopla, he declined photographers' requests to give a thumbs-up for the cameras that sunny day in Yuma, Ariz. "No, no, no," he demurred with a smile.
Liberman's reticence was understandable. For while the Marines hailed his arrival as a sign that their initial F-35 squadron is now operational, there's one sticking point. "It's an operational squadron," a Marine spokesman said. "The aircraft is not operational."
The F-35, designed as the U.S. military's lethal hunter for 21st century skies, has become the hunted, a poster child for Pentagon profligacy in a new era of tightening budgets. Instead of the stars and stripes of the U.S. Air Force emblazoned on its fuselage, it might as well have a bull's-eye..........
Between 2009 and 2011, at least nine of the top-level generals and admirals who retired took positions with these five companies. In fact, 70 percent of the 108 three-and-four star generals and admirals who retired during this time period took jobs with defence contractors or consultants.
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The business of Generals taking jobs with military contractors is a difficult one. Where the heck else are they supposed to work?
I fail to see why they should be accommodated in a different manner compared with other government employees.
Most Generals stop working at or close to retirement age anyway, why should they be entitled to earn so much extra over an already very good 'pension -pay'.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people working past their retirement entitled age but why agree with the mechanism that exists now which is way too easy to be corrupted (again, not saying that those who do are automatically corrupt).
The idea that Generals or other highly trained and educated military employees post retirement can only work for the defence industry, and more specifically the part of the industry they used to work together with while enlisted, is a too easy excuse.
I agree, it's tricky. One of the main problems is the very limited list of companies in the defence industry.
Of course many VSOs will take jobs in the industry. They enjoy it, they're good at it and it's where their expertise lies.
If the Government, on behalf of the people, think there is too much risk of corruption, then the Government should be expected to pay extra to exclude these people from their chosen profession. Anything else is 'guilty until proven innocent'.
Personally, I think the solution is to trust them (after all, we trusted them with the defence of the nation), but have mandatory long prison terms if found guilty of fraud. I'd like to do the same with politicians. No one wants to spend their retirement being Bubba's New Best Friend in a prison shower.
Of course many VSOs will take jobs in the industry. They enjoy it, they're good at it and it's where their expertise lies.
If the Government, on behalf of the people, think there is too much risk of corruption, then the Government should be expected to pay extra to exclude these people from their chosen profession. Anything else is 'guilty until proven innocent'.
Personally, I think the solution is to trust them (after all, we trusted them with the defence of the nation), but have mandatory long prison terms if found guilty of fraud. I'd like to do the same with politicians. No one wants to spend their retirement being Bubba's New Best Friend in a prison shower.
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Isn't the issue one of being in a paid advisory position, as opposed to being paid to 'run the project'. Either way, the contractor will be in control. All of them will be very well paid, will rub shoulders with the good and great, and will retire handsomely. Thereafter, the devil will take etc etc. Trust me, I was there once ---
2009 Chart for 'peter we'
edit: Blocked, nobody likes that site..
peter we, I am curious as to why the chart presented used the F-18C rather than the E/F as a comparison
This is the search if you want to look at it.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lo...w=1600&bih=709
Last edited by peter we; 18th Feb 2013 at 20:38.
Spaz's charts are from a presentation by Paul Bevilaqua in 2009.
However, all the graphics in that presentation are earlier than 2009, I would guess around 2002, so they may no longer be reliable.
FA - Since the questions to any AusDND rep would be along the lines of "You told us these were the facts in 2002-10, and these are the facts today, would you care to explain the discrepancy?" I would call the decision to not appear "diplomatic jaundice".
Bogdan can, at least, present himself as part of the clean-up team. There has been no similar awakening in Australia.
However, all the graphics in that presentation are earlier than 2009, I would guess around 2002, so they may no longer be reliable.
FA - Since the questions to any AusDND rep would be along the lines of "You told us these were the facts in 2002-10, and these are the facts today, would you care to explain the discrepancy?" I would call the decision to not appear "diplomatic jaundice".
Bogdan can, at least, present himself as part of the clean-up team. There has been no similar awakening in Australia.
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Entire F-35 fleet grounded over engine issues - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times
Entire F-35 fleet grounded over engine issues
By Aaron Mehta - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Feb 22, 2013 14:36:54 EST
ORLANDO, Fla. — The DoD has suspended all test flights for the entire F-35 joint strike fighter fleet due to engine problems.
The move comes nine days after the Pentagon cleared the F-35B jump-jet variant, designed for the Marines, to resume tests after a month long suspension. Both suspensions are due to problems with the engines.
Unlike the last suspension, which was only for the B variant, this suspension affects all three variants — the F-35A Air Force conventional takeoff version, the F35-B for the Marines, and the F35-C carrier variant for the Navy.
By Aaron Mehta - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Feb 22, 2013 14:36:54 EST
ORLANDO, Fla. — The DoD has suspended all test flights for the entire F-35 joint strike fighter fleet due to engine problems.
The move comes nine days after the Pentagon cleared the F-35B jump-jet variant, designed for the Marines, to resume tests after a month long suspension. Both suspensions are due to problems with the engines.
Unlike the last suspension, which was only for the B variant, this suspension affects all three variants — the F-35A Air Force conventional takeoff version, the F35-B for the Marines, and the F35-C carrier variant for the Navy.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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you might need to wait for a week before you crack the champers. it may not be a design fault and be a defective part
It is too early to know the fleet-wide impact of this finding, however as a precautionary measure, all F-35 flight operations have been suspended until the investigation is complete and the cause of the blade crack is fully understood
Bates added that the engine with the crack has 700 total engine operating hours, with 409 of those accrued in flight. He believes the engine analysis should take "roughly" a week.
Bates added that the engine with the crack has 700 total engine operating hours, with 409 of those accrued in flight. He believes the engine analysis should take "roughly" a week.
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you might need to wait for a week before you crack the champers. it may not be a design fault and be a defective part
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
It's not whether it's major or minor; or a design or manufacturing fault - it's that it happened at all. The next in a seeming never ending list of issues leading to groundings, delays, slippages, cost increases.
With the forthcoming sequester and the febrile mood in Congress it doesn't help a program which already has the crosshairs on it's chest.
With the forthcoming sequester and the febrile mood in Congress it doesn't help a program which already has the crosshairs on it's chest.
Last edited by ORAC; 23rd Feb 2013 at 08:51.
