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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 21st Jun 2018, 21:47
  #11481 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by glad rag View Post

Basically 73% of our fleet will be useless for their intended purpose. Which leads to the obvious question, just what IS their purpose???

Out~standing.
Congratulations. You’ve provided one of the most succinct examples of falsely situating the appreciation I’ve ever read.

Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I refer you to my post #11473 above......
No post seen. Just some isolated URL with no supporting text such as I avoid opening on principle.
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Old 21st Jun 2018, 23:25
  #11482 (permalink)  
 
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Plod,

First of all, you might want to address GR's point (based on the data assembled by di Briganti - the link is quite safe): Most of the UK's initial 48 aircraft will need substantial upgrade work to reach what was once referred to as Block 4 standard. The cost of this work has not been defined. Separately, the USAF has made it clear that the central element of this upgrade, the new TR3 integrated core processor, will be required for future upgrades.

Second, the fact that a lot of aircraft have been built and that none of them have crashed doesn't mean the program has been successful. If you go back to 1996, when the first big contracts were signed, or 2001, when the EMD contract was issued, the declared objective (and the business plan) was to replace a wide range of US and partner fighters one-for-one with 3,000+ stealthy airplanes by the early 2020s, while holding procurement costs to F-16/18 levels and reducing operational costs. This target has been missed.

That's why the USAF is struggling with an aging fleet and the UK is trying to figure out whether it can (or wants to) afford more than the 48 aircraft needed (at a bare minimum) to equip the carriers. This would be a non-problem if the 2001 targets for cost and schedule had been met; and not too bad of a problem had the 2009 schedule been met.

Last edited by George K Lee; 22nd Jun 2018 at 11:53.
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Old 22nd Jun 2018, 07:06
  #11483 (permalink)  
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USMC F-35B Written Off

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...ts-first-f-35/

The Marine Corps has lost its first F-35

An F-35B that erupted into flames caused by a faulty bracket nearly two years ago has been struck by the Marine Corps, making it the first loss of an F-35 for the Corps.

The Corps made the determination that the costs to repair the costly high-tech fighter would not be worth the return on investment. However, the Marines have not put out an official strike message for the F-35B because the Corps has not decided whether the aircraft will be used as a trainer for maintenance or a museum centerpiece.

“With the specific F-35B involved in this discussion, the Marine Corps’ cost-benefit analysis determined the repair costs would not yield a sufficient ROI [return on investment] to justify the expenses,” Capt. Christopher Harrison, a Marine spokesman, told Marine Corps Times. “The decision was made to strike the F-35B; however, there has not yet been a strike message as the disposition decision has not yet been made.”.........

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Old 22nd Jun 2018, 11:31
  #11484 (permalink)  
 
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"new TR3 integrated core processor"

Ahh it has a name now.

Has design work started ?

What about the coding then??

And let's not forget about the testing.

How can it be said that the upgrades will be in place for production in 2023 (5 years or so) when the core element is just a figment on a power point slide.....


Who'd have thought it, #4
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 00:15
  #11485 (permalink)  
 
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So at the date of the fire, around 120 aircraft operating and ten years into the program the first aircraft is a write-off.

F/A-18 lost ten aircraft to crashes and fires, and possibly 40 F-16’s in the first ten years of flight.

Seems like a fairly reasonable safety record for the F-35.
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 07:50
  #11486 (permalink)  
 
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So at the date of the fire, around 120 aircraft operating and ten years into the program the first aircraft is a write-off.

Incorrect. 2014 engine fire at Eglin. ("f-35 engine fire 2014" only gets 23 million Google hits, so it's pretty obscure.)

F/A-18 lost ten aircraft to crashes and fires, and possibly 40 F-16’s in the first ten years of flight.

In the same era, all aviation accident rates were higher than they are today. The F-35's record is good, but so far is hard to distinguish in a meaningful way from its contemporaries.

Please continue to take cheap shots, but at least try to make some sense rather than wasting oxygen.

Last edited by George K Lee; 24th Jun 2018 at 08:31.
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 08:32
  #11487 (permalink)  
 
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Will that be the biggest military write off in history, if it is actually written off
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 08:33
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Mr Lee is correct - the F-35 programme has been remarkably safe to date

I suspect partly because most of the flying has been done by test pilots operating to carefully planned sorties and incremental performance goals and not front-line squadrons but even so it is an achievement.
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 08:49
  #11489 (permalink)  
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Will that be the biggest military write off in history, if it is actually written off
In real terms I doubt it equates to writing off the entire Valiant bomber fleet - or for the USAF the loss of one of the two XB-70 Valkyrie bomber prototypes.
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 09:02
  #11490 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wander00 View Post
Will that be the biggest military write off in history, if it is actually written off
Hardly. The B-2 Spirit that crashed on the runway shortly after takeoff from Andersen Air Force Base in Guam in 2008 was written off for $1.4bn but there's at least one example much closer to home:

Nimrod destruction cost taxpayer £3.4bn as MoD ignored 'cost implications', MPs say
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 11:36
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Big difference between W/O a single airframe (eg B-2) in a continuing programme/deployment and a whole programme (Nimrod, TSR-2 etc etc)
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 12:34
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
Big difference between W/O a single airframe (eg B-2) in a continuing programme/deployment and a whole programme (Nimrod, TSR-2 etc etc)
Agreed but still a defence budget military 'write-off' of eye-watering proportions.
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Old 3rd Jul 2018, 07:16
  #11493 (permalink)  
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https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/y...pentagon-says/

With their F-35 program in limbo, Turkish pilots begin training in US

Turkish pilots and maintainers have arrived at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona to begin training on their first two F-35 fighter aircraft ― but the jets themselves will remain in U.S. custody for at least the next year, the Pentagon said Monday.

The jets were flown by Lockheed Martin last week to the Arizona base, which is home to the F-35 international partner training program. Turkey’s pilots will likely take their first flight in them in about a month, after they complete some initial classroom and simulator training, said Air Force Lt. Col. Mike Andrews, a Pentagon spokesman. Completion of full pilot training, which is a condition of Turkey assuming custody of the jets takes between one to two years, Andrews said.

But Turkey may not get the jets even after training is complete. The Senate passed language in its version of the 2019 defense authorization bill that would block the jets’ sale to Turkey based on U.S. concerns over Turkey’s purchase of a Russian S-400 long-range air and missile defense system. The House would still need to agree to the language in the final version of the bill.

Both options, to transfer the jet or block it, have potential negative consequences. If Turkey obtains custody, it could lead to Russia gaining sensitive technical information about the aircraft through the S-400 system. If the F-35 transfer is blocked, it could agitate the NATO ally to the point that use of Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base is restricted. The U.S. has depended on Incirlik to conduct its air campaign against the Islamic State in Syria.

“Following established agreements, the U.S. government maintains custody of the aircraft until custody is transferred to the partner,” said Army Col. Rob Manning, a Pentagon spokesman. “The U.S. government has not made a determination on Turkey’s future participation in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program.”........

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Old 3rd Jul 2018, 07:26
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What is the UK designation for the F35 - FA, GR, FGR etc?
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Old 3rd Jul 2018, 13:53
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Originally Posted by Vortex_Generator View Post
What is the UK designation for the F35 - FA, GR, FGR etc?
F35b-FUBAR.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 05:21
  #11496 (permalink)  
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN1JW28M

Italy says won't buy more F-35 fighter jets, may cut existing order

ROME (Reuters) - Italy will not buy more Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jets and is considering whether to stick to the order to which it is already committed, Defence Minister Elisabetta Trenta said on Friday.

Trenta comes from the anti-establishment 5-Star Movement which has always been critical of NATO member Italy’s order for 90 of the planes, saying the money could be better spent to boost welfare and help the sluggish economy. “We won’t buy any more F-35s,” Trenta said in a television interview with private broadcaster La 7. “We are assessing what to do regarding the contracts already in place.”

She spelled out several reasons to be cautious, saying that “strong financial penalties” could mean that “scrapping the order could cost us more than maintaining it.” She also cited benefits in terms of technology and research in Italy linked to the planes, as well as jobs that would be lost. However, Trenta said she saw merit in stretching out the purchases in order to free up resources for investments in European defense projects.

Some 5-Star officials said last year that Italy should cancel the order for the fighters altogether, but Trenta made clear she had reservations about this. “No one is hiding the fact we have always been critical ... In view of the existing contracts signed by the previous government, we are carrying out a careful assessment that exclusively considers the national interest,” she said.....
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Old 13th Jul 2018, 22:07
  #11497 (permalink)  
 
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Quite a lively display put on by the F-35A at RIAT today...


-RP
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 13:40
  #11498 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Rhino that was a good looksie esp 02:52 ->..

meanwhile back in the real world..

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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 18:42
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Lasers anyone? Cue Dr. Evil...

F-35 Engine Upgrade Would Enable Directed Energy Weapons | Farnborough Airshow 2018 content from Aviation Week

Between the buzzwords in the article like a P&W president saying "“We have widened the aperture and are looking at adaptive elements across the engine,” a few interesting tidbits about potential power improvements with modifications for a "drop in" engine. More benefits could be done with external mods. Also talk of introducing a third stream for performance improvements. Seems they are wringing more out the donk and revising the already planned engine mods that were "Offered as a cost-neutral upgrade"!
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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 19:05
  #11500 (permalink)  
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If you thought cancelling the F136 saved money, just wait for the prices for the prices for the proposed upgrades to the F135.

It should also also be pointed out that one of the major problems already has heat dissipation. The laws of thermodynamics hold true and if you add more power you also produce more heat - and the only rema8njng way to lose it is to throw it out the back.....
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