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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 26th May 2018, 20:04
  #11341 (permalink)  
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Reference IR detection.....

How the Navy's New Block III Super Hornet Could Crush China's J-20 or Russia's Su-57 | The National Interest Blog

Sounds good against a single target, it as soon as you get multiple targets with the same signature you get multiple false locations. Vague relocation that the old UKADGE passive radar detection system had all sorts of ways to eliminate them (for electronic jammers, not IR) using hyperbolic lays etc - but there were always dozens of them when it was exercised.
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Old 26th May 2018, 20:55
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
http://www.defensenews.com/congress/...ops-f-35-sale/

Turkey threatens retaliation if new bill stops F-35 sale
If Turkey’s recent actions are anything to go by they have already committed to buying the Russian missile system despite warning that this might jeopardise the F-35 deal.

If they are that dismissive about valid US/NATO/F-35 Consortium security concerns, then they are simply displaying exactly why they should not be allowed access.
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Old 28th May 2018, 12:12
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Originally Posted by Brat View Post
If Turkey’s recent actions are anything to go by they have already committed to buying the Russian missile system despite warning that this might jeopardise the F-35 deal.
If they are that dismissive about valid US/NATO/F-35 Consortium security concerns, then they are simply displaying exactly why they should not be allowed access.
Their attitude in general, when they can't get what they want from the west, is to cuddle up to the east and vice versa. They trade one side off against the other so they don't have to be anyone's poodle. On the F-35 it's the Americans who need to sell them much more, I think (but I admit I'm no expert), than Turkey needs to buy them.
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Old 28th May 2018, 12:47
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And a legitimate tactic to use in bargaining, this however to be balanced against the legitimate concerns of the consortium who propose buying the F-35 which has to be also taken into consideration.

Britain has doubts about servicing it’s F-35’s outside UK ie in Turkey. Israel will certainly have concerns with Turkish F-35’s as their relationship with Turkey has had its ups and downs, though they have quite sensibly obtained rights to distance/isolate themselves to a degree from parts of the program.

Turkey’s actions as a NATO ally have in the past raised concerns with NATO, their recent purchase of the Russian missile system unprecedented in the NATO partnership quite apart from their differences with the US.

There would be many who feel that the need to sell to Turkey has been in doubt for a while and that it should be stopped. It has been an ‘interesting' development that is quite rapidly approaching crunch time.

Which way it will go is anyone’s guess as it has been a very fluid situation with regard to Erdogan and whether his own people will put up with his particular dreams of power, national alliances, and, shaping of the thinking and policies of the Turkish Military which has been so drastically culled of any Western leaning command structure.
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Old 28th May 2018, 13:34
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Given events in Italy, statements in the UK, and Easter Eggs in the PB19, the program can ill afford to wave goodbye to 100 sales.

A certain desperation is also evident when an LM-compensated consultant is comparing advocacy of European aircraft in Germany to treason:

Taking a leaf from Vladimir Putin’s playbook, some in Europe’s aerospace and defense industry have warned of dire consequences should Germany break with recent practice and acquire a limited number of F-35s to fulfill its commitments under NATO’s nuclear-sharing agreement.

Goure's link goes to this story.

Airbus defense chief Dirk Hoke told German newspaper Die Welt am Sonntag this weekend that a decision to buy the F-35 would kill off plans by France and Germany to develop a new European fighter. “As soon as Germany becomes an F-35 nation, all cooperation with France on combat jet issues will die,” Hoke told the paper.

Last edited by George K Lee; 28th May 2018 at 16:39.
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Old 28th May 2018, 14:58
  #11346 (permalink)  
 
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Gouré supports American arms sales to other countries, as a method of controlling them.[5]


"Because it controls the flow of spare parts and the technology to upgrade U.S. systems, Washington can also influence local politics," Goure observed.

"In World War II, the United States earned the title of the Arsenal of Democracy. Since that time the continued use of the title has been justified by the way the United States has employed targeted arms sales to support and influence friends and allies around the world."


Ref http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...4581298409611/

Last edited by glad rag; 28th May 2018 at 17:09.
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Old 28th May 2018, 18:48
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Arms sales of certain weapons to certain allies.

LM and the US can ill afford to give away cutting edge secrets when there is a serious risk of them compromising a major defence system of every other member of the F-35 consortium.
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Old 29th May 2018, 13:53
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Originally Posted by George K Lee View Post
Airbus defense chief Dirk Hoke told German newspaper Die Welt am Sonntag this weekend that a decision to buy the F-35 would kill off plans by France and Germany to develop a new European fighter. “As soon as Germany becomes an F-35 nation, all cooperation with France on combat jet issues will die,” Hoke told the paper.
A "cooperation" that is much more imaginary than real. If such cooperation actually existed, Rafale would not exist and Typhoon would look quite different than it now is.
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Old 29th May 2018, 18:20
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I see the Israelis have leaked pics of an F 35 over Lebanon....
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Old 29th May 2018, 20:22
  #11350 (permalink)  
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I don’t see why apart from PR - they have been flying F-16s and F-15s over Beirut with impunity for over 30 years......
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Old 29th May 2018, 23:02
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Ken - There is an early Dassault-Airbus relationship on a future combat aircraft, post-Typhoon/Rafale.
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Old 30th May 2018, 14:06
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Originally Posted by George K Lee View Post
Ken - There is an early Dassault-Airbus relationship on a future combat aircraft, post-Typhoon/Rafale.
I'm aware of that. There was also an "early relationship" when the concept for Typhoon was being developed. That turned from "cooperation" into direct competition. This will likely (almost certainly?) be no different.
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Old 30th May 2018, 14:15
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Doesn’t bode well for the Franco/German option for a German F-35 replacement. But then the German forces are in a little bit of a state of disarray.

France which was a ‘victor’ in the last war, quite logically is in a better position, and their front line equipment is in a bit better shape...but...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nes-unfit-fly/
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Old 30th May 2018, 15:46
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
How the Navy's New Block III Super Hornet Could Crush China's J-20 or Russia's Su-57 The National Interest Blog
Sounds good against a single target, it as soon as you get multiple targets with the same signature you get multiple false locations. Vague relocation that the old UKADGE passive radar detection system had all sorts of ways to eliminate them (for electronic jammers, not IR) using hyperbolic lays etc - but there were always dozens of them when it was exercised.
Boeing/Navy just did a sensor fusion test of the new block III sensor, datalink, processing, and display suite. The results were, according to the Navy pilots, "eye watering". And this is the first iteration with significant improvements expected before it goes into full production.
LINK
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Old 31st May 2018, 07:03
  #11355 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George K Lee View Post
Given events in Italy, statements in the UK, and Easter Eggs in the PB19, the program can ill afford to wave goodbye to 100 sales...
Given Turkey’s present economic situation one does wonder if Turkey is in a position to buy 100 F-35’s?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...-tayyip-erdoga
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Old 31st May 2018, 14:45
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Originally Posted by Brat View Post
Given Turkey’s present economic situation one does wonder if Turkey is in a position to buy 100 F-35’s?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...-tayyip-erdoga
As of 2013, €998,000,000 from the EU should have helped...
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 00:38
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A good point, if a rather sore one.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 04:09
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Originally Posted by glad rag View Post
As of 2013, €998,000,000 from the EU should have helped...
Fine, take some of the 3.4 million Syrian refugees then perhaps, if you think all those frightened racists back home would put up with it.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 12:33
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Originally Posted by t43562 View Post
Fine, take some of the 3.4 million Syrian refugees then perhaps, if you think all those frightened racists back home would put up with it.

Really?

Pawns in Erdoğans hand more like....
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 14:58
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Originally Posted by glad rag View Post
Really?

Pawns in Erdoğans hand more like....
All he has to do is to let them transit/leave Turkey for Europe and you'll see some REAL costs
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