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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 3rd Mar 2017, 09:14
  #10281 (permalink)  
 
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Ballistic missiles seem to have remained unsurpassed.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 10:36
  #10282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
Originally Posted by FODPlod View Post
... bear in mind that every weapon system is 'obsolete' from the moment it is developed because someone somewhere will have started working on a more advanced countermeasure...

You've answered your own question unless you can identify a previous weapon system that has not eventually been surpassed or countered through technological development.
Ballistic missiles seem to have remained unsurpassed.
Aren't they a current weapon system, possibly unsurpassed for the time being but who knows what's around the corner? They are certainly not remaining uncountered. Here's some of the evidence:
Originally Posted by RUSI Aug 2015
MORE and more states around the world are buying ballistic-missile defence (BMD) capabilities...

In fact, BMD is the single new capability aspiration within the force-development work of the MoD Main Building and front-line command. The operation of UK forces in a ballistic-missile threat environment and the emergence of a formal defence requirement are likely to be jointly considered within the context of the forthcoming national Security Strategy and associated Strategic Defence and Security Review. As a result, BMD could quickly emerge as both a political and military requirement...
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 12:00
  #10283 (permalink)  
 
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An interesting piece on the US Army’s plans for BM systems for anti-ship purposes.
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/army-c...killers-china/

And with the F-35’s ability to link with ground based missile systems and to direct and manage them as recently demonstrated, together with the recent USMC F-35 deployment to Japan, a US counter strategy to developing Chinese naval plans, and aggressive expansion in the S China seas would seem to be evolving.


@Rhino Power
but, I'm done...
No problems with that here. Stick to the beer.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 13:38
  #10284 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by glad rag View Post
That does seem to be fast becoming the fanboys sign off....

Now, about all this "proven", dare one say, fake news; what are your actual sources?
??????? Sun over the yardarm already?

Even Einstein would need a bit more of a steer than that. What on earth are you on about?
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 15:08
  #10285 (permalink)  
 
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On a lighter, and slightly thread drifting note, not F-35, but a significant military aircraft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_AZeMRqCfg.

Old farts, ‘fanboys’ do maintain an interest in, not only past, but future developments.

I met and shook General Paul Tibbet’s hand when doing a Lear Jet rating some years ago at his company facility at EJA. Executive Jet Airways was founded in 1964 as a private business jet charter and aircraft management company. The founding members of the board of directors Air Force generals Curtis E. LeMay and Paul Tibbetts Jr.,

Air power and air superiority remain keystones to military strategy in global warfare, space the new frontier.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 16:05
  #10286 (permalink)  
 
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So, Fodplod...

Yes because it is still the most advanced system in existence.

I don't know what you mean there, and I don't think you do either. We love to use the word "advanced" because it sounds as if it means more than "newer". And what "system" are you comparing it to? Fighters? Military aircraft? Military aerospace systems?

Who can produce something equally capable any faster?

Capable at exactly what? As has been laid out in detail in this thread and elsewhere, the F-35 is not as capable as an F-22 in A2A. It can't hit moving targets very well, absent lots more time and money (and there's no fixed budget or schedule). EOTS is not as good as Litening 4 at what targeting systems do, let alone Litening 5 or Talios. And if the target's more than 400-500 miles from a safe tanker line it's no use whatsoever.

By virtue of the minds, money and other resources being applied, it is certainly better than anything else on the cards.

By this standard, we'd just award Oscars according to the production budget and Concorde would have outsold every Airbus.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 17:30
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By this standard, we'd just award Oscars according to the production budget and Concorde would have outsold every Airbus.
George, Concorde would certainly have had, and held, the Oscar for being the fastest civilian transport. It did not outsell Airbus...or even the A-380, so no Oscars there. We deal with what is, not with what might have been.

We also deal with what is...now...and in regard to future platforms, based upon present development, as opposed to vapourware. We certainly like the word ‘advanced', if justified. The F-35 is indisputably in advance of anything similar being developed by any other country at the present time.

Capability, with regard to the F-35, is indisputably evident, and not to recognise that is blinkered in the extreme.

The F-35 or item in discussion, is, an ongoing presently, in service, piece of military hardware. The naysayers, detractors and critics constantly seem to overlook this.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 17:38
  #10288 (permalink)  
 
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Spain, Switzerland and Belgium in talks with LM on the F-35.
Lockheed says in talks with Spain, Belgium, others on buying F-35s | Reuters

Or are these just more infatuated ‘fanboys’.???
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 17:43
  #10289 (permalink)  
 
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LM need to make more trips???
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 17:45
  #10290 (permalink)  
 
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Well, Brat, that's a lot of words to say not very much.

We deal with what is, not with what might have been.

Deep philosophy, dude. Are you disputing my point that effort and resources aren't the sole constituents of excellence, as Fodplod seemed to be saying? Nobody's arguing that Concorde wasn't fast. It was really, really fast and its unrefueled range at supersonic speed has never been bettered. But that didn't make it a better commercial airplane than an Airbus, because the mission of a commercial airplane is to support itself aerodynamically and economically at the same time.

Capability, with regard to the F-35, is indisputably evident, and not to recognise that is blinkered in the extreme.

The F-35 is delivering some of the capability originally requested - as a stealth bomber with some A2A capability - but if you want a ing cookie for doing this seven years late and double-digit-billions over budget you don't get it from me.

The F-35 or item in discussion, is, an ongoing presently, in service, piece of military hardware.

To be accurate, or even ongoingly and presently accurate about an item in discussion, whatever that means, it has been declared operational, but not under the criteria in the SDD contract.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 20:34
  #10291 (permalink)  
 
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Seem to remember the term " jollies" or perhaps it some $$$$ bad $$$$ news courtesy of Pres Trump.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 21:26
  #10292 (permalink)  
 
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 23:30
  #10293 (permalink)  
 
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Seems someone may have briefed him.
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 08:50
  #10294 (permalink)  
 
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Brat,

Your passion towards F-35 is respected and appreciated. Would be stupid to object that it is a nice, "advanced" (whatever it means) and the best (assume F-22 is out of the scope of comparison) a/c of its kind in operation/service at the moment.

However, I suppose there are many folks "here" used to strict formulations and definitions. And some of your statements seem not so solid from this standpoint.

E.g., concerning Concorde, Tupolev Tu-144 performed its maiden flight earlier than Concorde, had higher cruise speed (only about 50-100 km/hr, but still..), flew higher and had higher passsenger capacity. However, it also represented a much greater commercial failure than Concorde, and its regular flights lasted for about two years only as its costs ineffectiveness was enormous.

As for F-35, you wrote: "The F-35 is indisputably in advance of anything similar being developed by any other country at the present time."

Words such as "being developed" make your statement disputable, in turn. I do not know much about the Chinese stuff, but the Russian one is quite comparable. It is not in the serial production, but being developed and tested, indeed.

It is even more questionable to consider F-35 superiority over modern IADS's and other networked infrastructures it is supposed to deal with. The whole F-35 programme lasts for extremely long time. All the techniques and technologies (and even specific implementations and solutions) it is based on were carefully studied some 15-20 years ago by those who later implemented "opposing systems".
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 09:50
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Originally Posted by A_Van View Post
Brat,

Your passion towards F-35 is respected and appreciated. Would be stupid to object that it is a nice, "advanced" (whatever it means) and the best (assume F-22 is out of the scope of comparison) a/c of its kind in operation/service at the moment.

However, I suppose there are many folks "here" used to strict formulations and definitions...
Okay. Assuming for the moment that you and your fellow F-35 doom-mongers succeed in persuading us "fanboys" that it's an expensive "turkey", no "better" or "more capable" than anything else currently flying or in development, what's your plan for convincing all those who've flown the aircraft, or been closely involved otherwise, such as these?
Originally Posted by Business Insider UK 6 Aug 2016
"Only the pilots who have flown the fighter actually know how well the Air Force version of the F-35 can perform, and the 31 who were surveyed for this paper expressed a high degree of confidence in this extraordinary fighter," wrote the report's author, John Venable, a senior research fellow for defense policy and a retired US Air Force Thunderbird commander.

His findings: Pilots prefer the F-35.
Originally Posted by The National Interest 26 Jun 2016
"There is nothing that I have seen from maneuvering an F-35 in a tactical environment that leads me to assume that there is any other airplane I would rather be in. I feel completely comfortable and confident in taking that airplane into any combat environment,” Lt. Col. Matt Hayden, 56th Fighter Wing, Chief of Safety, Luke AFB, Arizona, told Scout Warrior in a special pilot interview.

Furthermore, several F-35 pilots have been clear in their resolve that the multi-role fighter is able to outperform any other platform in existence.
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 12:22
  #10296 (permalink)  
 
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FIGHTER,really is it a fighter. Depends on terminology. Also is it or will it really outclass every other aircraft. I seriously doubt it is better than typhoon in true a2a. You only have to look at the statistics. Typhoon is lighter has a much bigger wing and much more power as well as greater range. Pilots who fly new jet will always say it is the best thing since sliced bread. It is their job after all. Let's keep things in perspective. After all the billions spent on F35 and all the years of development it should be good. The question is how long stealth and it's clever electronics can keep a very average basic platform ahead of its rivals.
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 13:35
  #10297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
Pilots who fly new jet will always say it is the best thing since sliced bread. It is their job after all...
I think you're very brave to be accusing pilots of being liars in this forum.

Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
After all the billions spent on F35 and all the years of development it should be good.
Agree. What's more, some 15 per cent of EVERY jet, with production set to reach nearly 4,000 aircraft, will be built in the UK. The return on investment from foreign sales should pay for the UK's order several times over.
Originally Posted by UK Defence Journal 31 Jan 2017
“The amount of revenue the UK will generate from the F-35 programme in its totality will create multiples of return on their investment”

The above was said Declan Holland, BAE Systems commercial director for its UK F-35 business. Holland continued, “Ultimately, the UK will take in about GBP1bn of business each year on this program.” Holland goes on to note that the program could continue into the 2040s”.

At peak, the F-35 will support 25,000 jobs in the UK over the next few decades and pump 1bn a year into the economy.
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 13:49
  #10298 (permalink)  
 
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FODPlod,

you and your fellow F-35 doom-mongers succeed in persuading us "fanboys" that it's an expensive "turkey"
Calm down, please. Don't be so nervous. There was neither sarcasm, nor irony in my words as follows:
Would be stupid to object that it is a nice, "advanced" (whatever it means) and the best (assume F-22 is out of the scope of comparison) a/c of its kind in operation/service at the moment.
Thus, your argumentum ad hominem is not applicable here.

Regarding
what's your plan for convincing all those who've flown the aircraft, or been closely involved otherwise, such as these?
there is no plan, let them enjoy flying it. You have your toys, we have ours, no envy.

The same about the cost (you said "expensive turkey"). If the customer is ready to pay and has money, it's his business.

I was only meaning that this aircraft is not a silver bullet.
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 14:21
  #10299 (permalink)  
 
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Words, words and more words... We will know how good or bad it really is when it is battle tested, real time. That has yet to happen. For sure, we know how expensive it is to buy one. What isn't known is how expensive it will be to maintain in combat situations, except it will be more expensive than current aircraft.
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 14:29
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Sounds like good value for money if four F-35s can do the work of 12 or 13 aircraft of the previous generation:
This is good news, we can pare down quantity of F-35s desired accordingly, correct?
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