F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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F-35As from 388 FW arriving at Nellis AFB for Ex REDG FLAG 17-1.
An unusually rainy day for my part of the world - hopefully bodge tape is not required around the cockpit frame edge like some UK jets I remember !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACWl1zRVaQ
An unusually rainy day for my part of the world - hopefully bodge tape is not required around the cockpit frame edge like some UK jets I remember !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACWl1zRVaQ
..Still one of the very few aircraft in the world that is able to operate at low level, day or night and in poor weather, the Tornado is now equipped with a modern precision-guided weapons suite and world-class reconnaissance sensors such as the Reconnaissance Airborne Pod for Tornado (RAPTOR). The aircraft also carries the Litening III Advanced Targeting Pod, which is used in both attack and reconnaissance roles...
..The RAPTOR pod is one of the most advanced reconnaissance sensors in the world and greatly increases the effectiveness of the aircraft in the reconnaissance role. Its introduction into service gave the GR4 the ability to transmit, real-time Long Range Oblique Photography (LOROP) to commanders or to view this in cockpit during a mission. The stand-off range of the sensors also allows the aircraft to remain outside heavily defended areas, thus minimising the aircraft’s exposure to enemy air-defence systems. Additional capability in the Non-Traditional Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (NTISR) role is provided by the Litening III RD and the use of the ROVER data link for providing tactical operators with real time Full Motion Video (FMV) in the battle space...
...The aircraft can fly automatically at low level using Terrain Following Radar (TFR) when poor weather prevents visual flight. The aircraft is also equipped with Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) and is Night Vision Goggle (NVG) compatible. This gives it a relatively unique all weather night capability as well as making it an impressive platform for mounting passive night electro-optical operations.
For navigation purposes, the Tornado is equipped with an integrated Global Positioning Inertial Navigation System (GPINS). The GR4 also has a Ground Mapping Radar (GMR) to identify fix-points and update navigation systems as well as providing an air to air search facility. The GR4 is also equipped with a Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) that can be used to locate targets designated on the ground or can provide accurate range information to ground targets...
..The Tornado GR4 is now equipped with the Storm Shadow missile and 2 variants of the Brimstone missile, including the most advanced DMS variant. The Storm Shadow allows the Tornado to make precision strikes in poor weather with a greatly increased stand-off range from the target area. Whilst legacy Brimstone provides the Tornado with an effective anti-armour weapon coupled with an enhanced stand-off range. The DMS variant enables unrivalled flexibility coupled with precision which is second to none.
In addition, the Tornado GR4 Force trains and maintains a capability with legacy weapons such as 1000lb class dumb weapons, legacy Paveway II and III as well as their enhanced variants...
... DMS and Legacy Brimstone, Enhanced Paveway II, Storm Shadow, , Paveway II, Paveway III, Paveway IV...
...and a WSO to bring it all together...and then there's the stuff that isn't talked about..
Sorry, what does the plastic pig bring to the party apart from "coming soon" folks/pass the hat around (again).
Last edited by glad rag; 27th Jan 2017 at 04:29.
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Sorry, what does the plastic pig bring to the party apart from "coming soon" folks/pass the hat around (again).
1. Where have you been? The new capabilities the F-35 brings to the battle have been discussed ad nauseam and the tactics to exploit those capabilities are now being developed. Including tactics that use the F-35 to significantly improve the effectiveness and lethality of legacy aircraft still in the forces.
2. The Tornado first flew 38 years ago and has been out of production for nearly TWO DECADES and the fielded aircraft are reaching the end of their service lives. The F-35 is at the very beginning of its operational/service cycle. How much better was Tornado than the aircraft it was replacing when Tornado first entered service? The F-35 brings far more capability at the beginning of its service cycle relative to the aircraft it will replace than Tornado did when it was first fielded.
3. Waiting for all the Tornados to die before developing and bringing into service a new aircraft is stoopid.
...and a WSO to bring it all together
...and then there's the stuff that isn't talked about..
And finally there is the matter of stealth, which the Tornado cannot under any circumstance ever provide. Yeah, I know, "stealth is over rated." Tell that to USAF, USN, Israel, Denmark, and more than a few other national air arms.
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What a surprise!
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The F-35 as a weapon system is remarkable, the F-35 program no less so.
It has created a closer alliance between the participating countries who will be operating it, the the various armed forces who will be utilising it, and those who may have to go to combat in it.
To not recognise that is myopic.
There are many participating countries. Just one of them.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR9g-4DFVvg
??????
It has created a closer alliance between the participating countries who will be operating it, the the various armed forces who will be utilising it, and those who may have to go to combat in it.
To not recognise that is myopic.
There are many participating countries. Just one of them.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR9g-4DFVvg
Sorry, what does the plastic pig bring to the party apart from "coming soon" folks/pass the hat around (again).
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From an ex military pilot who knows the plane.
https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/...t-in-the-house
https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/...t-in-the-house
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Looks like the Navy is getting its way and getting out of the F-35C programme, The various comments from sources in the article seem designed to lesson the impact of a final decision.
More interesting will be the effect on the F-35A buy - the Budget Office paper a few pages back comes to mind.
Mattis Orders Separate Reviews of F-35, Air Force One Programs | DoD Buzz
More interesting will be the effect on the F-35A buy - the Budget Office paper a few pages back comes to mind.
Mattis Orders Separate Reviews of F-35, Air Force One Programs | DoD Buzz
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"It has created a closer alliance between the participating countries who will be operating it, the the various armed forces who will be utilising it, and those who may have to go to combat in it."
True, very true - they all suspect they've been sold a pup.......................
True, very true - they all suspect they've been sold a pup.......................
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F-35 is better than Tornado and stealth negates the low level all-weather requirement. Moreover, everything else Tornado brings is a weapon capability, not one inherent in the aircraft; I know this because I've operated in both aircraft programmes and flown the GR4 on operations many times. That's not to detract from GR4's exceptional operational service record - few other aircraft have ever come close or beaten it in role. She is a true icon and has served the UK with distinction, but let your emotions for it go glad rag - she's nearing retirement and we now need F-35's capabilities to be prepared for the next 40 years or so. Most of the weapon capability you speak of is being transitioned to Typhoon, for exactly that reason.
Oh, and have another look at PM May's language. She said 'no longer would we intervene to make others in our own image'. She didn't say we wouldn't intervene to protect the UK's sovereign territory or national interests. That was purposeful and means that expeditionary warfare is NOT a thing of the past. c.f. Op SHADER: where we are fighting Daesh at range rather than on our own doorstep.
No, HH, you might suspect that, but you have no clue what we're really getting...clearly!
Oh, and have another look at PM May's language. She said 'no longer would we intervene to make others in our own image'. She didn't say we wouldn't intervene to protect the UK's sovereign territory or national interests. That was purposeful and means that expeditionary warfare is NOT a thing of the past. c.f. Op SHADER: where we are fighting Daesh at range rather than on our own doorstep.
True, very true - they all suspect they've been sold a pup.......................
"It has created a closer alliance between the participating countries who will be operating it, the the various armed forces who will be utilising it, and those who may have to go to combat in it."
True, very true - they all suspect they've been sold a pup.......................
True, very true - they all suspect they've been sold a pup.......................
Originally Posted by Business Insider UK 4 Jan 2017
According to Lt. Col. David "Chip" Berke, the only US Marine to fly both the F-22 and the F-35, the public has a lot of learning to do when assessing a jet's capability in warfare. "The whole concept of dogfighting is so misunderstood and taken out of context," Berke said in an interview with Business Insider. "We need to do a better job teaching the public how to assess a jet's capability in warfare."
"There is some idea that when we talk about dogfighting it's one airplane's ability to get another airplane's 6 and shoot it with a gun ... That hasn't happened with American planes in maybe 40 years," Berke said...
"We need to stop judging a fighter's ability based on wing loading and Gs," Berke said of analysts who prize specifications on paper over pilots' insights. Furthermore, Berke, who has several thousand flying hours in four different airplanes, both fourth and fifth generation, stressed that pilots train to negate or avoid conflicts within visual range — and he said no plane did that better than the F-35.
"There is some idea that when we talk about dogfighting it's one airplane's ability to get another airplane's 6 and shoot it with a gun ... That hasn't happened with American planes in maybe 40 years," Berke said...
"We need to stop judging a fighter's ability based on wing loading and Gs," Berke said of analysts who prize specifications on paper over pilots' insights. Furthermore, Berke, who has several thousand flying hours in four different airplanes, both fourth and fifth generation, stressed that pilots train to negate or avoid conflicts within visual range — and he said no plane did that better than the F-35.
Originally Posted by Scout Warrior 1 Jan 2017
Speaking to Scout Warrior as part of a special “Inside the Cockpit” feature on the F-35A, Air Force Col. Todd Canterbury, a former F-35 pilot and instructor, said the new fighter brings a wide range of new technologies including advanced sensors, radar, weapons for attack and next-generation computers.
Although he serves now as Chief, Operations Division of the F-35 Integration Office at the Pentagon, Canterbury previously trained F-35 pilots at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. Canterbury is uniquely positioned to know the F-35’s margins of difference because he has spent thousands of hours flying legacy aircraft such as the service’s F-15 and F-16 fighters.
"The F-35 is a dream to fly. It is the easiest airplane to fly. I can now focus on employment and winning the battle at hand as opposed to looking at disparate information and trying to handle the airplane,” Canterbury told Scout Warrior... “If we don’t need stealth, I can load this up with weapons and be a bomb truck,” Canterbury explained...
Although he serves now as Chief, Operations Division of the F-35 Integration Office at the Pentagon, Canterbury previously trained F-35 pilots at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. Canterbury is uniquely positioned to know the F-35’s margins of difference because he has spent thousands of hours flying legacy aircraft such as the service’s F-15 and F-16 fighters.
"The F-35 is a dream to fly. It is the easiest airplane to fly. I can now focus on employment and winning the battle at hand as opposed to looking at disparate information and trying to handle the airplane,” Canterbury told Scout Warrior... “If we don’t need stealth, I can load this up with weapons and be a bomb truck,” Canterbury explained...
VMFA-121 F-35Bs complete PCS from MCAS Yuma, AZ to MCAS Iwakuni, Japan upon reassignment to 1 MAW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmirvAA5xA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpXJcwuiFj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmirvAA5xA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpXJcwuiFj0
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"but you have no clue what we're really getting...clearly!"
the trouble is the program is not moving anywhere near as fast as it should and we're not getting what we need when we need it
the latest problems with the MoD budget due to the exchange rate can only mean fewer UK F-35's in the long run
the trouble is the program is not moving anywhere near as fast as it should and we're not getting what we need when we need it
the latest problems with the MoD budget due to the exchange rate can only mean fewer UK F-35's in the long run
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No, HH. Your previous comment - about F-35 being a pup - was clearly a dig at performance/capability and is completely unfounded. Trying to somehow make said comment about a scheduling issue is bolleaux. Let's actually see what happens to the buy plan herein, rather than second-guessing something which has yet to happen - by the way, the current delivery schedule was locked-in a number of years ago, before any of the current political/economical turbulence came up. Right now jets are being delivered within a month or two of that years-old plan I mentioned; over 200 delivered which is more than the entire production run of F-22.
So, frankly, I don't buy your opinion as fact.
PS - go ask the USAF how F-35A is getting on in Red Flag. Tell them it's a pup and take a photo of their faces. Then post it here with another armchair critic "guess" that you pulled out of your posterieur.
So, frankly, I don't buy your opinion as fact.
PS - go ask the USAF how F-35A is getting on in Red Flag. Tell them it's a pup and take a photo of their faces. Then post it here with another armchair critic "guess" that you pulled out of your posterieur.
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but let your emotions for it go glad rag -
You see this has been the problem with your participation in this discussion, you always, always, take it to the personal, derogatory level.
I can only surmise that your hatred of what I and others post stems from not only the accuracy of our statements but that you,for whatever reason, feel personally threatened by the facts about both the airframes limitations and the ##mismanagement of the whole programme.
## obviously this depends on what side of the $$$$ line you're on.
You see this has been the problem with your participation in this discussion, you always, always, take it to the personal, derogatory level.
I can only surmise that your hatred of what I and others post stems from not only the accuracy of our statements but that you,for whatever reason, feel personally threatened by the facts about both the airframes limitations and the ##mismanagement of the whole programme.
## obviously this depends on what side of the $$$$ line you're on.
Last edited by glad rag; 29th Jan 2017 at 00:09. Reason: VPN and auto correction
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GR your trolling appears to suggest that no other aircraft program has ever had these sorts of problems.
Your statements are extremely general, and could be applicable to almost any development program for any piece of advanced equipment.
You appear to be reluctant to give any credentials for your opposition to the F-35.
Your statements are extremely general, and could be applicable to almost any development program for any piece of advanced equipment.
You appear to be reluctant to give any credentials for your opposition to the F-35.
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No GR, I have no hatred. None at all. But I do sit in a position whereby I've flown GR4, on ops, and understand the F-35 Program. My comparison is therefore not clouded by a personal hate for the F-35, unlike yours. It is one from the cockpit, knowing the capabilities. Yours is????
You have failed to state your credentials many times. Yes, we banter, but that's what folk often do on PPRuNe. Where I draw the line is when, in trying to point out errors in some of the statements, you immediately assume I'm a paid "shill", which would currently be be both immoral and illegal if it were true. You've done it again in your last reply, without evidence. I'm still under Crown employment ffs.
You have failed to state your credentials many times. Yes, we banter, but that's what folk often do on PPRuNe. Where I draw the line is when, in trying to point out errors in some of the statements, you immediately assume I'm a paid "shill", which would currently be be both immoral and illegal if it were true. You've done it again in your last reply, without evidence. I'm still under Crown employment ffs.
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MSCOS - it's just not good enough to say that "all advanced programmes overrun"
This one has become such an important programme to the whole of teh Western military that it's under the icroscope constantly but I'm sure that even you would have to admit it's a real mess - and there is little sign that it's really under control even now
LM and USAF have announced that all is well so many times - only to annouce further delays and overruns - is it any surprise that no-one believes a word they say anymore?
This one has become such an important programme to the whole of teh Western military that it's under the icroscope constantly but I'm sure that even you would have to admit it's a real mess - and there is little sign that it's really under control even now
LM and USAF have announced that all is well so many times - only to annouce further delays and overruns - is it any surprise that no-one believes a word they say anymore?
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HH, I have never denied the Program is both late (not too late though) and over cost (it is way over total Program cost). The unit price will settle within 10% of the goal - if it doesn't, Trump will axe it. That's what his statements on F-35 really mean, whilst giving the USN some options to plug their fighter gap with SHornet until F-35C's problems are ironed out some more. I'm not an apologist but take issue with unfounded leaps of faith, such as the one you made about F-35 being a "pup", under suspicion by those receiving/buying it. The customers are very aware of what they are getting. People fear what they do not understand and the journos snatch the little snippets they get and publish. Those snippets are often wholly taken out of context. The IOT&E report is 'warts and all' but dangerous when interpreted by those who aren't necessarily able to view them in the context of the entire system capability. Therefore they are unable to answer the question 'what does this mean then?', often bridging the gap with assumption and WAGs.
Whether you believe LM, or don't, is a personal judgement. The USAF declared IOC, end-of. Be critical and suspicious if you will, but when I occasionally point out that the mountain is awesome even though the mole hills are problematic, I'm being honest, not paid to say so.
There are things that affect the Program, outside of the Office's control. From where I sit, things are pretty stable now but the new administration may alter that.
Will the Program be cancelled? I sincerely doubt it.
Whether you believe LM, or don't, is a personal judgement. The USAF declared IOC, end-of. Be critical and suspicious if you will, but when I occasionally point out that the mountain is awesome even though the mole hills are problematic, I'm being honest, not paid to say so.
There are things that affect the Program, outside of the Office's control. From where I sit, things are pretty stable now but the new administration may alter that.
Will the Program be cancelled? I sincerely doubt it.