F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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:-) Looks like an Xwind from LEFT is causing some cringeing on deck :roll: : https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa81...ws-1__main.jpg
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Another nation doubling down on a bad decision.
Looks like Turkey is yet another nation doubling down on their original poor F-35 purchase decision by buying more F-35s. 
Turkey To Buy Two Dozen More F-35s
LONDON—Turkey has committed to purchase an additional 24 F-35 Joint
Strike Fighters, one of the largest single orders for the aircraft placed by a
foreign country.
Ankara has already placed orders for six aircraft, following orders made in 2014 and 2015, and will now buy two dozen more aircraft, Defense Minister Fikri Isik told broadcaster A Haber in a Nov. 1 interview.
The decision follows an Oct. 28 meeting of Turkey’s Defense Industry Executive Committee (SSIK), the first since the attempted coup against the AKP government on July 15. It called for first deliveries of the F-35 in 2018, with initial deliveries of the second batch of aircraft to follow in 2021. It is unclear whether Turkey’s order will form part of a larger block buy strategy being pursued by Lockheed Martin to reduce the per-aircraft price.
Turkey is currently planning to purchase around 100 F-35s, primarily as a replacement for the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, which remains in service in an upgraded form, as well as to replace some early model F-16s. Turkey is also continuing to pursue development of an indigenous fighter currently known as the TFX, likely to be a twin-engine aircraft.
The F-35 program was one of a number of programs discussed by the SSIK. Other programs signed off on by the committee include a modernization program for the Turkish navy’s fleet of 24 S-70B Seahawk helicopters. The committee also approved the development of a new light armored vehicle.
—Tony Osborne, [email protected]
Turkey To Buy Two Dozen More F-35s
LONDON—Turkey has committed to purchase an additional 24 F-35 Joint
Strike Fighters, one of the largest single orders for the aircraft placed by a
foreign country.
Ankara has already placed orders for six aircraft, following orders made in 2014 and 2015, and will now buy two dozen more aircraft, Defense Minister Fikri Isik told broadcaster A Haber in a Nov. 1 interview.
The decision follows an Oct. 28 meeting of Turkey’s Defense Industry Executive Committee (SSIK), the first since the attempted coup against the AKP government on July 15. It called for first deliveries of the F-35 in 2018, with initial deliveries of the second batch of aircraft to follow in 2021. It is unclear whether Turkey’s order will form part of a larger block buy strategy being pursued by Lockheed Martin to reduce the per-aircraft price.
Turkey is currently planning to purchase around 100 F-35s, primarily as a replacement for the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, which remains in service in an upgraded form, as well as to replace some early model F-16s. Turkey is also continuing to pursue development of an indigenous fighter currently known as the TFX, likely to be a twin-engine aircraft.
The F-35 program was one of a number of programs discussed by the SSIK. Other programs signed off on by the committee include a modernization program for the Turkish navy’s fleet of 24 S-70B Seahawk helicopters. The committee also approved the development of a new light armored vehicle.
—Tony Osborne, [email protected]
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So when the efflux was not a concern the crosswind for STO must have been from the right? Makes sense. New Communication Ear Defenders are being used by deck personnel.
Flight Deck Headset Compensates for F-35 Engine Noise 23 Sep 2015 Andrew Clevenger
http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...oise/72706410/
Flight Deck Headset Compensates for F-35 Engine Noise 23 Sep 2015 Andrew Clevenger
http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...oise/72706410/
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 2nd Nov 2016 at 14:55. Reason: add artickle text URL + photo
I will remember that you've been on the high seas in future responses. Even old salts are subject to memory defects as age increases.
Looks like Turkey is yet another nation doubling down on their original poor F-35 purchase decision by buying more F-35s.
Turkey To Buy Two Dozen More F-35s
LONDON—Turkey has committed to purchase an additional 24 F-35 Joint
Strike Fighters, one of the largest single orders for the aircraft placed by a
foreign country.
Turkey To Buy Two Dozen More F-35s
LONDON—Turkey has committed to purchase an additional 24 F-35 Joint
Strike Fighters, one of the largest single orders for the aircraft placed by a
foreign country.
I also note that the program has not been cancelled. I wonder if we need to start a new thread, now that the original question of six years ago has been answered? Maybe not, there may still be a few cases of cold feet and deep disappointment in cost ...
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'Lonewolf 50' you have not outlined your NavAv experience. Meanwhile 'Merica:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5790/...b56a77_o_d.jpg (3.1Mb)
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5790/...b56a77_o_d.jpg (3.1Mb)
Spaz:
I spent 25 pretty decent years in the USN, rotary and fixed wing, Naval aviator. During that time, I had the chance to both preside over and serve on a few aviation mishap boards, as I noted to a churlish poster on Rotorheads who questions the US Navy's use of the term Mishap for an accident.
I even go stuck in an acquisition job where I had to deal with the fallout of a very expensive APN-1 program playing havoc with the programs we had oversight on. The F-35 program I had a small bit of work in, early 2000's, but that was on the training systems side, not the air vehicle side.
Allusions to much of that are in a variety of threads here on Mil, as well as no few in this very thread, as has my experience on the NATO side where I had service in NATO proper. What I don't do is spam other peoples' work when I post. There, now you know. Given the number of haters in this extended discussion, it is nice to see someone with enthusiasm for the F-35, warts and all.
I had the professional opportunity to work with ship, and even serve with officers, sailors and Marines in the:
RN
Australian Navy
Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force
Canadian Navy
Italian Navy
German Navy
Dutch Navy
Greek navy
Turkish Navy (and had to work for a Turk in NATO)
Spanish Navy
As well as some work with Marines, Air Forces, and Armies. Probably forgot a few, that was off the top of my head.
It was a good run, though it appears that you and I are of a slightly different vintage. I retired in 2005.
The F-35 isn't going to be canceled any time soon. It's bloody expensive, and we wont' know if it's any good until it gets into the fight: and by that point, what options will anyone have? Hope is the method (and I do hope it succeeds). All eggs in one basket: that's the decision in more than one government, hence this thread.
I spent 25 pretty decent years in the USN, rotary and fixed wing, Naval aviator. During that time, I had the chance to both preside over and serve on a few aviation mishap boards, as I noted to a churlish poster on Rotorheads who questions the US Navy's use of the term Mishap for an accident.
I even go stuck in an acquisition job where I had to deal with the fallout of a very expensive APN-1 program playing havoc with the programs we had oversight on. The F-35 program I had a small bit of work in, early 2000's, but that was on the training systems side, not the air vehicle side.
Allusions to much of that are in a variety of threads here on Mil, as well as no few in this very thread, as has my experience on the NATO side where I had service in NATO proper. What I don't do is spam other peoples' work when I post. There, now you know. Given the number of haters in this extended discussion, it is nice to see someone with enthusiasm for the F-35, warts and all.
I had the professional opportunity to work with ship, and even serve with officers, sailors and Marines in the:
RN
Australian Navy
Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force
Canadian Navy
Italian Navy
German Navy
Dutch Navy
Greek navy
Turkish Navy (and had to work for a Turk in NATO)
Spanish Navy
As well as some work with Marines, Air Forces, and Armies. Probably forgot a few, that was off the top of my head.
It was a good run, though it appears that you and I are of a slightly different vintage. I retired in 2005.
The F-35 isn't going to be canceled any time soon. It's bloody expensive, and we wont' know if it's any good until it gets into the fight: and by that point, what options will anyone have? Hope is the method (and I do hope it succeeds). All eggs in one basket: that's the decision in more than one government, hence this thread.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hmmmm - asking for another $500M and being sued by your own contractor. Programme proceeding as normal then........
The Pentagon wants $500 million more to finish the F-35 - Business Insider
Defense officials at the Pentagon say they need up to $500 million more to finish the development phase for the F-35, the troubled fifth-generation fighter that's already gone 50% over its original budget.
The F-35 program office requested the money last month to the Defense Acquisition Board, according to Bloomberg, which first reported the news Wednesday. The call for additional funds is pretty familiar at this point, since the program — known as the Joint Strike Fighter since it will be used by the Navy, Marines, and Air Force — has been plagued by lengthy delays and enormous cost overruns............
Lockheed, Pentagon Spar Over F-35 Contract - WSJ
The Pentagon on Wednesday awarded Lockheed Martin Corp. a $6.1 billion deal for the next batch of F-35 fighter jets, triggering an unusual rebuke from the defense contractor over the terms and timing. The deal for the ninth batch of the stealthy fighters covers 57 jets for the U.S. and some foreign air forces, with talks continuing on another contract involving more than 100 planes. Lockheed has been in negotiations with the Pentagon for 18 months about a combined deal for 160 jets covering two years of production, and the two sides had hoped to reach agreement in early 2016. But negotiations over price and other issues dragged on longer than expected as the Pentagon tries to cut the cost of the F-35A model used by the U.S. Air Force to around $80 million by the end of the decade, and The Wall Street Journal reported last week that the order would be split.
Lockheed said in a statement Wednesday that the new deal was imposed on it, and a spokesman said the company is considering a court appeal so that talks could be reopened.
"We are disappointed with the decision by the Government to issue a unilateral contract action on the F-35 [latest] contract," the company said. Negotiating F-35 deals in bigger batches was intended to cut the Pentagon's price and help Lockheed and its partners negotiate better deals with their suppliers. The F-35 accounts for 23% of Lockheed's revenue and is an important contributor to sales and earnings at other companies including Northrop Grumman Corp. and BAE Systems PLC, as well as dozens of smaller contractors.
The Pentagon wants $500 million more to finish the F-35 - Business Insider
Defense officials at the Pentagon say they need up to $500 million more to finish the development phase for the F-35, the troubled fifth-generation fighter that's already gone 50% over its original budget.
The F-35 program office requested the money last month to the Defense Acquisition Board, according to Bloomberg, which first reported the news Wednesday. The call for additional funds is pretty familiar at this point, since the program — known as the Joint Strike Fighter since it will be used by the Navy, Marines, and Air Force — has been plagued by lengthy delays and enormous cost overruns............
Lockheed, Pentagon Spar Over F-35 Contract - WSJ
The Pentagon on Wednesday awarded Lockheed Martin Corp. a $6.1 billion deal for the next batch of F-35 fighter jets, triggering an unusual rebuke from the defense contractor over the terms and timing. The deal for the ninth batch of the stealthy fighters covers 57 jets for the U.S. and some foreign air forces, with talks continuing on another contract involving more than 100 planes. Lockheed has been in negotiations with the Pentagon for 18 months about a combined deal for 160 jets covering two years of production, and the two sides had hoped to reach agreement in early 2016. But negotiations over price and other issues dragged on longer than expected as the Pentagon tries to cut the cost of the F-35A model used by the U.S. Air Force to around $80 million by the end of the decade, and The Wall Street Journal reported last week that the order would be split.
Lockheed said in a statement Wednesday that the new deal was imposed on it, and a spokesman said the company is considering a court appeal so that talks could be reopened.
"We are disappointed with the decision by the Government to issue a unilateral contract action on the F-35 [latest] contract," the company said. Negotiating F-35 deals in bigger batches was intended to cut the Pentagon's price and help Lockheed and its partners negotiate better deals with their suppliers. The F-35 accounts for 23% of Lockheed's revenue and is an important contributor to sales and earnings at other companies including Northrop Grumman Corp. and BAE Systems PLC, as well as dozens of smaller contractors.
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Post by KenV: Looks like Turkey is yet another nation doubling down on their original poor F-35 purchase decision by buying more F-35s.
Downside
Shades of the Iran F-14 deal, sell/give them one of your best, government changes and then wish you had them back.
Partial Upside
The way things are going, the Turks may well be the first to put the F-35s to use in a real combat test. Question remaining, who will they be testing them against?
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Shades of the Iran F-14 deal, sell/give them one of your best, government changes and then wish you had them back.
"Acquisition Malpractice", Sen McCain
Just read the news release of Sen McCain's letter to Gen Brogdan and the Pentagon, criticizing the F-35 program. With due respect to the good senator, I wonder how he would do running such a complex program. It's much easier to tell someone how badly they are doing than it is to do it yourself. Considering his performance in the Senate, it might be interesting if he had the job of defense secretary and see if he can actually accomplish something.
I've got a warm spot in my heart for Senator McCain, his faults and virtues mostly balance, but I also think he's reached his sell by date. (See similar issues with Senator Byrd of W Va. At some point, retire FFS!) He's been ragging on selected programs and acquisition issues for some years, so his giving F-35 and its program lead the needle is consistent with some of his previous rhetoric.
Downside
Shades of the Iran F-14 deal, sell/give them one of your best, government changes and then wish you had them back.
Shades of the Iran F-14 deal, sell/give them one of your best, government changes and then wish you had them back.
Indeed blowback is a concern. I would think that with the F-35 being so software dependent, and tied to the ALIS system, that operations by a country that has gone "the other way" would be much more difficult. Perhaps even a few lines of code that the jet could be "bricked", or not receive an update it needs. I know some countries were concerned about not having the rights/or the full code.
It is one thing to keep a Huey/Cobra, C-130, F-4, F-5, F-14 etc. running with little outside support- and the Iranians have done an impressive job- but the amount of software on those airframes pales compared to the F-35. It sound like buyers will be very tied to the LM software codes (some perhaps more than others).
More news with the UK chosen as global F-35 MRO,
cheers
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...-35-repair-hub
cheers
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...-35-repair-hub
Also in lieu of whoever gets elected come the end of play tomorrow - the F-35 program is still safe ....
cheers
cheers
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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F-35 ‘Too Smart’ For Training
F-35 ‘Too Smart’ For Training, Pilot Says
Defense Daily 11/07/2016
Author: Pat Host
The F-35 aircraft is so good at fusing information received via sensors that it negatively impacts the training its pilots receive, according to a pilot.Air Force Lt. Col. Scott Gunn, a F-35A pilot, said Monday the aircraft will often ignore threats during training that the training system has set up to be a threat. Gunn said, in response, the Air Force almost has to dumb-down the aircraft to recognize threats that pilots may see on the battlefield. Gunn said in the past with federated systems, he could send out little bits and pieces and trick the pilot, trick the system into thinking he’s giving them good training.
“If I don’t have something that really looks like, smells like and acts like the threat I’m trying to find, I never get the pilots the training that I need when I go and send them out to combat,” Gunn said at an Air Force Association event on Capitol Hill.
Air Force Warfare Center Commander Maj. Gen. Glen VanHerck said a lot of the service’s most realistic training will occur in a virtual constructive environment in the “not too distant future.” These virtual environments, he said, are where the Air Force can do larger force, more realistic deployment of fifth generation aircraft and not give away capabilities. VanHerck said the Air Force, in the meantime, will continue flying to make sure its wringing out capabilities.
Gunn called the sensor training issue one of the infrastructure-related challenges the Air Force is tackling with the F-35. In addition to a limited airspace issue that he said the service has faced since the F-22, Gunn said the infrastructure network that the F-35 plugs into is like connecting to a dial-up modem in the ’80s and ’90s. During a discussion on what pilots would want in a sixth generation aircraft, Gunn said the Pentagon needs to first improve the infrastructure before getting into how fast or how far a sixth generation aircraft should fly.
The F-35 is developed by Lockheed Martin [LMT] with subcontractors BAE Systems and Northrop Grumman [NOC].
Defense Daily 11/07/2016
Author: Pat Host
The F-35 aircraft is so good at fusing information received via sensors that it negatively impacts the training its pilots receive, according to a pilot.Air Force Lt. Col. Scott Gunn, a F-35A pilot, said Monday the aircraft will often ignore threats during training that the training system has set up to be a threat. Gunn said, in response, the Air Force almost has to dumb-down the aircraft to recognize threats that pilots may see on the battlefield. Gunn said in the past with federated systems, he could send out little bits and pieces and trick the pilot, trick the system into thinking he’s giving them good training.
“If I don’t have something that really looks like, smells like and acts like the threat I’m trying to find, I never get the pilots the training that I need when I go and send them out to combat,” Gunn said at an Air Force Association event on Capitol Hill.
Air Force Warfare Center Commander Maj. Gen. Glen VanHerck said a lot of the service’s most realistic training will occur in a virtual constructive environment in the “not too distant future.” These virtual environments, he said, are where the Air Force can do larger force, more realistic deployment of fifth generation aircraft and not give away capabilities. VanHerck said the Air Force, in the meantime, will continue flying to make sure its wringing out capabilities.
Gunn called the sensor training issue one of the infrastructure-related challenges the Air Force is tackling with the F-35. In addition to a limited airspace issue that he said the service has faced since the F-22, Gunn said the infrastructure network that the F-35 plugs into is like connecting to a dial-up modem in the ’80s and ’90s. During a discussion on what pilots would want in a sixth generation aircraft, Gunn said the Pentagon needs to first improve the infrastructure before getting into how fast or how far a sixth generation aircraft should fly.
The F-35 is developed by Lockheed Martin [LMT] with subcontractors BAE Systems and Northrop Grumman [NOC].
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I am surprised that nobody as commented on the F-35B fire above - which happened on 27th Oct, but which the press release was snuck out the day before the elections. What is it they say about hiding bad news?
Note that it was a weapons bay fire which resulted in Class A $2M+ damage.
No mention of possible cause or ramifications. Engine, fuel leak, hydraulics, electrical?
What's the safety case for a major fire in a weapons bay filled with bombs and missiles?
And the pilot's notes? Fly around till it goes out - if you feel lucky? Do not bring it back anywhere near us?
Note that it was a weapons bay fire which resulted in Class A $2M+ damage.
No mention of possible cause or ramifications. Engine, fuel leak, hydraulics, electrical?
What's the safety case for a major fire in a weapons bay filled with bombs and missiles?
And the pilot's notes? Fly around till it goes out - if you feel lucky? Do not bring it back anywhere near us?