F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
HTT SNAFU!: Australian F-35's will be Sukhoi bait in the Pacific & other bad news for the program.
Gizmodo Australia...
In the submission to the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade’s Joint Strike Fighter inquiry, Royal Australian Air Force Wing Commander Chris Mills AM, MSc, BSc (Retd) says that lessons from history and statistical modelling suggest that the F-35 is a poor choice for the future of warfare in the region, which centres around air superiority versus countries like Indonesia and China.
A simulation showing six F-35s versus six Sukhoi SU-35S, Indonesia’s intended future air superiority fighter choice for its air force, suggests that 2.36 Joint Strike Fighters would be lost for every SU-35S downed. The simulation was run on H3MilSim software developed by Mills’ RepSim, a company he and a colleague set up after retiring from the RAAF.
A simulation of the aerially superior F-22 Raptor, though, results in an almost precisely opposite outcome — with 2.14 Sukhoi jets destroyed per F-22 loss. While the F-35 is a newer jet, it is a multirole fighter capable of ground attack and reconnaissance, while the F-22 has the sole role of air superiority and supremacy in enemy airspace..........
With future fifth-generation aircraft like the Sukhoi PAK FA / T-50, China’s own Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31 on the horizon from Australia’s regional competitors, Mills suggests that production of the F-22 be restarted and the fighter itself exported for Australia’s use in local air superiority roles. Production of the F-22 by Lockheed Martin, its partners and the USAF was discontinued in 2011, but Mills says the tooling to produce several hundred new jets still exists and could be put to work on the very same production line as creates the Joint Strike Fighter in Dallas, Texas.
This is a thought exercise, obviously — the United States has never sold the F-22A to any other country on Earth, and the export itself is currently banned on national security grounds. But the shortcomings of the F-35 — without any next-generation “beyond visual range” over-the-horizon air-to-air missiles like the Meteor BVRAAM planned for Australia, although that missile is being developed for F-35 compatibility by the UK RAF and Ministry of Defence — are made clear by Mills’ submission.
Another submission from retired Wing Commander Anthony Wilkinson says that in its capacity as a multirole aircraft, the F-35’s bomb load is too small and its range is too short to be effective in the South Asia region. Other submissions, like that from Jai Galliott, suggest the Air Force and government should look into drones and pilotless versions of the F-35, which are not currently planned for development.
Gizmodo Australia...
In the submission to the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade’s Joint Strike Fighter inquiry, Royal Australian Air Force Wing Commander Chris Mills AM, MSc, BSc (Retd) says that lessons from history and statistical modelling suggest that the F-35 is a poor choice for the future of warfare in the region, which centres around air superiority versus countries like Indonesia and China.
A simulation showing six F-35s versus six Sukhoi SU-35S, Indonesia’s intended future air superiority fighter choice for its air force, suggests that 2.36 Joint Strike Fighters would be lost for every SU-35S downed. The simulation was run on H3MilSim software developed by Mills’ RepSim, a company he and a colleague set up after retiring from the RAAF.
A simulation of the aerially superior F-22 Raptor, though, results in an almost precisely opposite outcome — with 2.14 Sukhoi jets destroyed per F-22 loss. While the F-35 is a newer jet, it is a multirole fighter capable of ground attack and reconnaissance, while the F-22 has the sole role of air superiority and supremacy in enemy airspace..........
With future fifth-generation aircraft like the Sukhoi PAK FA / T-50, China’s own Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31 on the horizon from Australia’s regional competitors, Mills suggests that production of the F-22 be restarted and the fighter itself exported for Australia’s use in local air superiority roles. Production of the F-22 by Lockheed Martin, its partners and the USAF was discontinued in 2011, but Mills says the tooling to produce several hundred new jets still exists and could be put to work on the very same production line as creates the Joint Strike Fighter in Dallas, Texas.
This is a thought exercise, obviously — the United States has never sold the F-22A to any other country on Earth, and the export itself is currently banned on national security grounds. But the shortcomings of the F-35 — without any next-generation “beyond visual range” over-the-horizon air-to-air missiles like the Meteor BVRAAM planned for Australia, although that missile is being developed for F-35 compatibility by the UK RAF and Ministry of Defence — are made clear by Mills’ submission.
Another submission from retired Wing Commander Anthony Wilkinson says that in its capacity as a multirole aircraft, the F-35’s bomb load is too small and its range is too short to be effective in the South Asia region. Other submissions, like that from Jai Galliott, suggest the Air Force and government should look into drones and pilotless versions of the F-35, which are not currently planned for development.
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I guess it depends on who you think you are going to fight
Indonesia? Unlikely - you haven't fought them in the last 70 years so why now?
China - improbable - there would go all your trade but maybe as part of a coalition with the US
various unknown ISIS type groups a longgg way from Oz - very likely but they won't have SU-35's
Indonesia? Unlikely - you haven't fought them in the last 70 years so why now?
China - improbable - there would go all your trade but maybe as part of a coalition with the US
various unknown ISIS type groups a longgg way from Oz - very likely but they won't have SU-35's
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HH, you make a good point but Aus must, first and foremost, look after its domestic interests in the region and only then look to what other influence its Armed Forces may bring on the world stage. Therefore the Indo-Pacific theatre is probably the most dangerous but not the most likely.
It looks good, but the simulation software used there is more of a game for enthusiasts than it is a serious tactical analysis tool. It certainly does not use high fidelity missile or radar modelling and it does not contain the (highly classified) RCS data that a lot of the shots in the videos would need in order to model the flyout accurately.
I wouldn't put too much faith in the kill ratios claimed there. Unless, of course we really can swap billions of dollars worth of scientific wizardry for a £50 game.
I wouldn't put too much faith in the kill ratios claimed there. Unless, of course we really can swap billions of dollars worth of scientific wizardry for a £50 game.
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Have you ever personally dealt with the Israelis industry in the aviation world? If you have, you wouldn't write stuff like your above quote.
For the record, contrary to the opinions of the nabobs, Israel fully understands what they are getting with F-35 (both good and bad) AND what the various alternatives have to offer. And no, it is NOT just because the US has paid for their F-35s. Those military aid funds could just as easily have procured new (and more) F-15s and F-16s if that is what Israel wanted. But they've made clear they want F-35s, and want them as soon as they can possibly get them, and they have negotiated changes to the F-35 that no other nation has been able to get that enable the incorporation/integration of indigenous Israeli systems.
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Ken, I am slightly at a loss as to how the F35 program is going to work with Isreal having its own systems incorporated, how does this fit with the ALIS system or when it is working will there be an ALIS I Isreal specific, at cost, maintenance system, or will the systems developed in Israel be available to all?
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Ken,
I didn't miss anything. There is an old saying "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." The classical use of the word nabob has nothing to do with the way you use it here. It has everything to do with the American metaphoric use of the word. The first instance of usage was by an American country comedian, Minnie Pearl in her comedy role on The Grand Ole Opry. She had a character by the name of Uncle Nabob. But more importantly, the word was used by Spiro Agnew, VPOTUS, Richard Nixon's attack dog. Agnew used "nabob" to debase the press and people that disagreed with the Nixon handling of the Vietnam War. It meant, stupid, clueless, air brained, etc., So I don't think your advertised suggestive, kinder approach in countering people that disagree with you on this forum is accurate. Nabob is just stealth word, the attack upon those who disagree with you continues...
The Israelis want the F-35 for the latest technologies contained inside it for which they will thoroughly investigate, improve and use as they see fit.
Oh my. You actually missed the sarcasm in my post?
For the record, contrary to the opinions of the nabobs,
For the record, contrary to the opinions of the nabobs,
The Israelis want the F-35 for the latest technologies contained inside it for which they will thoroughly investigate, improve and use as they see fit.
Israel will use the F-35 as a stealthy light bomber and (I suspect) predominantly against fixed targets. These are things that the F-35 can do (and damn well should for the money.) I'm sure Israel also has robust plans to use other assets to deal with any counterstealth systems that its adversaries may acquire.
And Ken, as for your sarcasm...
I guess the folks that have access to the latest test data and test reports as well as reams of classified data, as well as the reports from their own pilots who've flown the plane, are either grossly naive or bought off by LM.
...it's so obvious, not to mention lame and unimaginative, that it's not worth commenting on. But since you want to bring it up...
And Ken, as for your sarcasm...
I guess the folks that have access to the latest test data and test reports as well as reams of classified data, as well as the reports from their own pilots who've flown the plane, are either grossly naive or bought off by LM.
...it's so obvious, not to mention lame and unimaginative, that it's not worth commenting on. But since you want to bring it up...
Last edited by LowObservable; 3rd Feb 2016 at 19:58.
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Step #1 for the F-35 Adir (Awesome) in Israel:
Step #2 Double the current F-35 range
Step #3 Install Israel designed weaponry
Step #4 No need to know...
According to "Defense News," Israel has received an exemption from the protocol requirements of the F-35 program requiring foreign air forces to do most of the maintenance work on the planes in Lockheed Martin's logistics centers. The Israel air force will be able to do most of the maintenance work in Israel, except for heavy maintenance, due to concern that a war could break out exactly when some the planes are outside Israel. A logistics center for maintenance of the Adir planes is now being built at the Nevatim base for this purpose. This center will have direct access to Lockheed Martin's information system.
IDF and Israeli defense industry sources told "Defense News" that eventually, they hope to develop external tools with Stealth capabilities. They noted that these efforts were justified, because the external fuel tanks would make the range of the Adir twice as long, or even more, with little risk of the airplane being detected by enemy radar. “It’s short-sighted to expect that all the smart people working here on conformal fuel tanks will not manage to make them stealthy," an IAF officer said.
Lockheed Martin was now working with Israeli company Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. to adapt Israeli-made air-to-ground weaponry to the plane.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
And in the meantime you have the USAF "Incredible Shrinking Fighter Force". For all the denials, the cuts are coming, and the spiral becoming recognisable - again.....
US Air Force Cuts Five F-35 Fighter Jets From Budget Request
"WASHINGTON – The US Air Force cut five F-35As from its fiscal year 2017 budget request while fully funding the Long Range Strike Bomber and KC-46 tanker, individuals with knowledge of the budget told Defense News. The Air Force reduced the F-35A buy in FY-17 from a planned 48 aircraft to just 43, according to one source. It is not clear if the Air Force will reduce the overall planned buy of 1,763 aircraft.........
The F-35A cut is not a surprise. Analysts and top government officials have hinted for months that changes could be ahead for the JSF as part of the Pentagon’s effort to balance its books. Frank Kendall, undersecretary for acquisition, technology and logistics, said in December that the Defense Department expects to make “disproportionate” cuts to modernization in FY17 – and he indicated a slowdown in F-35 production was likely.........
Cutting F-35As in FY17 will likely yield millions in savings over the next several years. The Air Force had planned to buy 44 F-35As in FY16 and 48 in FY17, before ramping up to 60 a year starting in FY18. But reducing that to 48 a year would free up approximately $1 billion per year for other priorities, the Congressional Research Service’s Jeremiah Gertler wrote in a December report.
“It’s the overwhelming elephant in the Air Force’s procurement budget,” Mackenzie Eaglen of the American Enterprise Institute told Defense News earlier this week. “They are not going to want to eat Bomber lunch at the expense of the JSF.”
The Air Force’s FY17 budget request also includes commitement to moving forward with the Joint Surveillance and Target Attack Radar System recapitalization effort, the Combat Rescue Helicopter, and restocking munitions expended in the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, according to the source
US Air Force Cuts Five F-35 Fighter Jets From Budget Request
"WASHINGTON – The US Air Force cut five F-35As from its fiscal year 2017 budget request while fully funding the Long Range Strike Bomber and KC-46 tanker, individuals with knowledge of the budget told Defense News. The Air Force reduced the F-35A buy in FY-17 from a planned 48 aircraft to just 43, according to one source. It is not clear if the Air Force will reduce the overall planned buy of 1,763 aircraft.........
The F-35A cut is not a surprise. Analysts and top government officials have hinted for months that changes could be ahead for the JSF as part of the Pentagon’s effort to balance its books. Frank Kendall, undersecretary for acquisition, technology and logistics, said in December that the Defense Department expects to make “disproportionate” cuts to modernization in FY17 – and he indicated a slowdown in F-35 production was likely.........
Cutting F-35As in FY17 will likely yield millions in savings over the next several years. The Air Force had planned to buy 44 F-35As in FY16 and 48 in FY17, before ramping up to 60 a year starting in FY18. But reducing that to 48 a year would free up approximately $1 billion per year for other priorities, the Congressional Research Service’s Jeremiah Gertler wrote in a December report.
“It’s the overwhelming elephant in the Air Force’s procurement budget,” Mackenzie Eaglen of the American Enterprise Institute told Defense News earlier this week. “They are not going to want to eat Bomber lunch at the expense of the JSF.”
The Air Force’s FY17 budget request also includes commitement to moving forward with the Joint Surveillance and Target Attack Radar System recapitalization effort, the Combat Rescue Helicopter, and restocking munitions expended in the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, according to the source
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Italian AF F-35A at Lajes...
According to the following blog post (you'll need to copy and paste and add an 'l' to 'bogspot' for the link to work) http://cannontwo.bogspot.pt/2016/02/...nas-lajes.html, an Italian AF F-35A (M.M.7332) landed at Lajes yesterday (3rd) with 2X Typhoons, 2X KC-767 and 2X C-130J, anyone got any idea what this was all about?
-RP
-RP
From the above link: "An Italian Air Force pilot from the test squadron at Pratica di Mare will fly the F-35 on its flight over Atlantic, the very first of this kind for the new generation stealth aircraft. In the backseat of the Typhoon will be another Italian F-35 pilot. The flight to Lajes is expected to take 4.5 hours. Air-to-air refueling with the KC-767 was validated last year in the US.After the stop over in Lajes, another 6.5 hour flight takes the F-35 and two accompanying aircraft to Naval Air Station Patuxent River in the US."
So, a F-35 being dragged accross the ocean by a KC-767....what thread do I post negative comments in????......
So, a F-35 being dragged accross the ocean by a KC-767....what thread do I post negative comments in????......
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Turbine, my use of the term nabob in this thread is short for my previous term: nattering nabobs of negativism. This term was invented by William Safire and first publicly used by Spiro Agnew. I thought the term fit well to describe the many on this thread who have made a hobby (and apparently some a profession) of pronouncing doom of the F-35. I also liked Spiro's "4H Club: Hopeless, hysterical, hypochondriacs of history." I chose to use the nattering nabobs of negativism term in reply to the charge of me being an "F-35 fanboy." If nabob is considered offensive, maybe I should switch to "F-35 4H Club".
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Ken, I am slightly at a loss as to how the F35 program is going to work with Isreal having its own systems incorporated, how does this fit with the ALIS system or when it is working will there be an ALIS I Isreal specific, at cost, maintenance system, or will the systems developed in Israel be available to all?
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Hey Ken.
Why won't the US pay for ours?
Why won't the US pay for ours?
Indeed, the F-35I wing is built in Israel and includes embedded sensor apertures not included in any other F-35.
Really? Where did that get published? (IAI, by the way, is building lots more F-35 wings than just the Israel order, and didn't have to compete for them.)
Really? Where did that get published? (IAI, by the way, is building lots more F-35 wings than just the Israel order, and didn't have to compete for them.)
Turbine, my use of the term nabob in this thread is short for my previous term: nattering nabobs of negativism. This term was invented by William Safire and first publicly used by Spiro Agnew. I thought the term fit well to describe the many on this thread who have made a hobby (and apparently some a profession) of pronouncing doom of the F-35. I also liked Spiro's "4H Club: Hopeless, hysterical, hypochondriacs of history." I chose to use the nattering nabobs of negativism term in reply to the charge of me being an "F-35 fanboy." If nabob is considered offensive, maybe I should switch to "F-35 4H Club".
I hate to break it to you, but if you're thinking of a career as a satirist. don't quit your day job. (Also, Spiro was a crook. Probably not a good role model for you.)
I hate to break it to you, but if you're thinking of a career as a satirist. don't quit your day job. (Also, Spiro was a crook. Probably not a good role model for you.)