F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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Is there any positive news in that report? If there was it was difficult to find.
It can be argued that the later than originally planned arrival of the RN aircraft carriers has at least saved some embarrassing questions from being asked.
It can be argued that the later than originally planned arrival of the RN aircraft carriers has at least saved some embarrassing questions from being asked.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Look at the bright side. At least when you have to slow down because of the weapon bay temp, you'll be able to open the bay doors and fire off your chaff and flares against the guy chasing you........
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The Chinese and Russians must love reading these reports 
In my view what needs to happen is that the JPO and Gilmore need to get in a room and really discuss the way forward privately, rather than this public berating and political point scoring. It's info on the performance of countermeasures etc. that directly affects the safety of the aircrew.
Whilst openness with the taxpayers is all well and good it should not compromise OpSec, which I feel that the OT&E report does.
In my view what needs to happen is that the JPO and Gilmore need to get in a room and really discuss the way forward privately, rather than this public berating and political point scoring. It's info on the performance of countermeasures etc. that directly affects the safety of the aircrew.
Whilst openness with the taxpayers is all well and good it should not compromise OpSec, which I feel that the OT&E report does.
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Or maybe those who don't have skin in the F35 game can see how compromised the aircraft is and wish to protect the ability of (the) nation(s) defence to be somewhat effective.
One would argue that those who stand to gain from the "success" (aka continued production whether or not the product is effective for the purpose of defence) of the F35 program have done a rather good job of almost ensuring that it is not possible to cancel the program thus protecting their investment and subsequent return (from the taxpayer.)
Exposing the inadequacies of this product when so much of the taxpayers funds have been expended on it and more importantly it is clear that even more is required to eventually produce an effective tool may actually be in the best interests of the nation.
One would argue that those who stand to gain from the "success" (aka continued production whether or not the product is effective for the purpose of defence) of the F35 program have done a rather good job of almost ensuring that it is not possible to cancel the program thus protecting their investment and subsequent return (from the taxpayer.)
Exposing the inadequacies of this product when so much of the taxpayers funds have been expended on it and more importantly it is clear that even more is required to eventually produce an effective tool may actually be in the best interests of the nation.
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Or maybe those who don't have skin in the F35 game can see how compromised the aircraft is and wish to protect the ability of (the) nation(s) defence to be somewhat effective.
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WO,
The United States spends more money on defense than the next twelve nations combined, and that includes China and Russia. So here we have the F-35 program, the most expensive single defense program, ever. Face it, the program is way late reaching the goal line, continuing technical problems remain and even grow with real solutions remaining elusive, e.g., sometime in the future. Yet, no one in US Government that controls the purse strings seem interested or even concerned with what has happened or what is going to happen. In fact:
Before the JPO and Gilmore sit down privately, Ash Carter might do well to become involved in the F-35 discussion along with the select few in Congress charged with Defense issues and spending. If anybody reads this, I hope Ash Carter does because he apparently is sheltered from reality...
In my view what needs to happen is that the JPO and Gilmore need to get in a room and really discuss the way forward privately, rather than this public berating and political point scoring. It's info on the performance of countermeasures etc. that directly affects the safety of the aircrew.
Whilst openness with the taxpayers is all well and good it should not compromise OpSec, which I feel that the OT&E report does.
Whilst openness with the taxpayers is all well and good it should not compromise OpSec, which I feel that the OT&E report does.
-- Sneak peek at Defense Secretary Ash Carter's FY2017 budget request: The Pentagon wants to boost spending on advanced weaponry and the U.S. footprint in Europe. Carter will today make a case for why China’s rapid military buildup and Russia’s intervention beyond its borders pose a larger threat to U.S. security, and merit larger investments, than do extremist groups like the Islamic State. Carter wants to broaden the military’s focus to include not just the insurgent conflicts of the post-2001 era but also “higher-end” threats from Russia and China, whose military innovation U.S. officials acknowledge has at times out-paced the United States.
I was watching the movie "Robocop" last weekend (the 1987 version, which I think is a classic). This little quote seems applicable to the F-35 program:
Dick Jones: I had a guaranteed military sale with ED 209 - renovation program, spare parts for twenty-five years... Who cares if it worked or not?
Oh my.
I find it interesting that given a choice between F-15, F-18, Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, Su-35, MiG-29 and this overpriced, highly "compromised" F-35, many are choosing the F-35. I guess the folks that have access to the latest test data and test reports as well as reams of classified data, as well as the reports from their own pilots who've flown the plane, are either grossly naive or bought off by LM.
All the partner nations chose the F-35 on the basis of empty promises about price and schedule, at a point (14 years ago) when the principal competitors were immature. Except for Denmark and Canada, they have simply failed to carry out any formal re-evaluation of their requirements or possible alternatives, so they mostly have no idea, beyond what they can pick up open source, of what the competitors can do. Italy and the UK are aware of Typhoon's capabilities, of course, but are have painted themselves into a corner by their carrier-aviation planning.
Korea carried out a rules-based evaluation and picked the F-15SE, a decision that was reversed at the political level. Israel doesn't use its own money, and has (AFAIK) some very specific tasks for the F-35. That leaves Japan, which is spending lots of money to do a lot of work in-country and, strangely enough, is also working on its own stealth fighter.
I find it interesting that given a choice between F-15, F-18, Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, Su-35, MiG-29 and this overpriced, highly "compromised" F-35, many are choosing the F-35. I guess the folks that have access to the latest test data and test reports as well as reams of classified data, as well as the reports from their own pilots who've flown the plane, are either grossly naive or bought off by LM.
All the partner nations chose the F-35 on the basis of empty promises about price and schedule, at a point (14 years ago) when the principal competitors were immature. Except for Denmark and Canada, they have simply failed to carry out any formal re-evaluation of their requirements or possible alternatives, so they mostly have no idea, beyond what they can pick up open source, of what the competitors can do. Italy and the UK are aware of Typhoon's capabilities, of course, but are have painted themselves into a corner by their carrier-aviation planning.
Korea carried out a rules-based evaluation and picked the F-15SE, a decision that was reversed at the political level. Israel doesn't use its own money, and has (AFAIK) some very specific tasks for the F-35. That leaves Japan, which is spending lots of money to do a lot of work in-country and, strangely enough, is also working on its own stealth fighter.
Last edited by LowObservable; 2nd Feb 2016 at 18:02.
WhiteOvies - I think it's clear from the JPO's response that those discussions have taken place long before the report is published. However, given the number of issues that have gone unaddressed for years, the JPO doesn't seem to have taken action.
And I'm not sure what a hostile intelligence agency would gather from the DOT&E reports. If you believe the F-35 fans and boosters, the DOT&E is full of
, so to the extent to which the Chinese and Russians treat the reports as credible, they will be lulled into a false sense of security. Brilliant strategic deception!
And I'm not sure what a hostile intelligence agency would gather from the DOT&E reports. If you believe the F-35 fans and boosters, the DOT&E is full of
, so to the extent to which the Chinese and Russians treat the reports as credible, they will be lulled into a false sense of security. Brilliant strategic deception!
Well, someone has a positive outlook...
From Flight Global:-
Click for the full article.
The Israeli Air Force (IAF) has accelerated its preparations for the delivery of the first Lockheed Martin F-35I Adir at the end of the year.
The "Golden Eagle" squadron at the Nevatim airbase is working to be ready for the stealth fighter that in Israel is considered one of the main elements of the edge the IAF wants to have in any future war.
Major Ehud is the F-35 squadron project manager in charge of the preparations. He said the deployment of the F-35 in the IAF is no less than a revolution. "With its capabilities, it redefines the term multi-role aircraft,” Ehud says.
"We know even before the first aircraft lands in this base that it's a force multiplier. Two F-35s will do the work of larger formations, sometimes of different types. Its capabilities to locate targets and perform the best attack under different conditions are no less than an operational revolution.”
The "Golden Eagle" squadron at the Nevatim airbase is working to be ready for the stealth fighter that in Israel is considered one of the main elements of the edge the IAF wants to have in any future war.
Major Ehud is the F-35 squadron project manager in charge of the preparations. He said the deployment of the F-35 in the IAF is no less than a revolution. "With its capabilities, it redefines the term multi-role aircraft,” Ehud says.
"We know even before the first aircraft lands in this base that it's a force multiplier. Two F-35s will do the work of larger formations, sometimes of different types. Its capabilities to locate targets and perform the best attack under different conditions are no less than an operational revolution.”
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Except for Denmark and Canada, they have simply failed to carry out any formal re-evaluation of their requirements or possible alternatives....
....so they mostly have no idea, beyond what they can pick up open source, of what the competitors can do.
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From Flight Global:-Quote:
The Israeli Air Force (IAF) has accelerated its preparations for the delivery of the first Lockheed Martin F-35I Adir at the end of the year.
The "Golden Eagle" squadron at the Nevatim airbase is working to be ready for the stealth fighter that in Israel is considered one of the main elements of the edge the IAF wants to have in any future war.
Major Ehud is the F-35 squadron project manager in charge of the preparations. He said the deployment of the F-35 in the IAF is no less than a revolution. "With its capabilities, it redefines the term multi-role aircraft,” Ehud says.
"We know even before the first aircraft lands in this base that it's a force multiplier. Two F-35s will do the work of larger formations, sometimes of different types. Its capabilities to locate targets and perform the best attack under different conditions are no less than an operational revolution.”
The Israeli Air Force (IAF) has accelerated its preparations for the delivery of the first Lockheed Martin F-35I Adir at the end of the year.
The "Golden Eagle" squadron at the Nevatim airbase is working to be ready for the stealth fighter that in Israel is considered one of the main elements of the edge the IAF wants to have in any future war.
Major Ehud is the F-35 squadron project manager in charge of the preparations. He said the deployment of the F-35 in the IAF is no less than a revolution. "With its capabilities, it redefines the term multi-role aircraft,” Ehud says.
"We know even before the first aircraft lands in this base that it's a force multiplier. Two F-35s will do the work of larger formations, sometimes of different types. Its capabilities to locate targets and perform the best attack under different conditions are no less than an operational revolution.”
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hmmm, about a squadron's worth of aircraft, paid for by the American taxpayer. Nice to see the Sqn Ops officer being enthusiastic about it.
In the meantime, what is the Knesset spending it's Sheckels on....
Israel to upgrade F-15I Ra'am fleet
Israel Announces F-16 Variant Upgrades
A dearth of Israeli funded F-35s.........
In the meantime, what is the Knesset spending it's Sheckels on....
Israel to upgrade F-15I Ra'am fleet
Israel Announces F-16 Variant Upgrades
A dearth of Israeli funded F-35s.........
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Ken,
Have you ever personally dealt with the Israelis industry in the aviation world? If you have, you wouldn't write stuff like your above quote. The Israelis fully understand what they will be taking delivery of, including all the shortcomings. They will quickly assess and apply whatever is required to make the aircraft perform as near as possible to what the original sales pitch from L-M was. You think for an instant they will honor the minor piece of paper that says you can't look at or touch or modify certain things in the F-35? Think again. They will have what they want and need in the F-35 up and flying while L-M and the US DoD/JPO are busy rearranging schedules, writing wordy defense of program papers and babying the built aircraft which will take years to totally fix. When you point your finger and call people "nabobs", your thumb is point at you.
Pffffff. What do the folks in a teeny tiny nation like Israel know about fighters and modern air warfare? Certainly not as much as the nabobs in this thread.
They are so naive about the F-35's countless and very public failings and so entrenched in their decision to "stay the course" that they're not even bothering to look at the numerous lower cost and proven alternatives.
I will stick to the facts and leave you to figure out motives.
I will stick to the facts and leave you to figure out motives.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
How to get around the lack of range? Add the entire cost of this program onto that of the F-35 - though they will try and claim s separate and an 'enhancement"......
Good-Bye, UCLASS; Hello, Unmanned Tanker, More F-35Cs In 2017 Budget
Good-Bye, UCLASS; Hello, Unmanned Tanker, More F-35Cs In 2017 Budget
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"The Chinese and Russians must love reading these reports "
I doubt it - they're probably screaming " we've spent ZILLIONS on counter measures against this b***** turkey over the last 15 years and now they're saying it STILL isn't ready....................."
"I doubt it - they're probably screaming " we've spent ZILLIONS on counter measures against this b***** turkey over the last 15 years and now they're saying it STILL isn't ready....................."