F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Amidst all the rather sad mutual sh*t-bagging that seems to infest much of this thread these days, did no one notice that two so-called 'operational' F-35As have been delivered to the USAF at Hill AFB?
First operational F-35As arrive at Hill AFB > U.S. Air Force > Article Display
That word 'operational is a bit puzzling, since IOC is still years away. But I suppose it's a step forward.
Isn't it?
airsound
First operational F-35As arrive at Hill AFB > U.S. Air Force > Article Display
That word 'operational is a bit puzzling, since IOC is still years away. But I suppose it's a step forward.
Isn't it?
airsound
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Long Range Strike Bomber (LRSB) proposals are reportedly more mature than the F-35 proposals were. Perhaps the Rapid Capabilities Office (PRO) which is managing the LRSB has learned a few lessons from the F-35's sad history.
On the plus side, deliver to Hill means that they passed their acceptance test flights, and are thus in the most basic sense operational. They fly and met whatever spec was needed to get the DD-250 signed.
Interesting:
The wings will receive one to two F-35s per month until 72 aircraft have been
delivered.
delivered.
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That word 'operational is a bit puzzling, since IOC is still years away. But I suppose it's a step forward. Isn't it?
The term as used here probably means the airplane was delivered in a configuration that makes it (minimally) operational. IOC is achieved when (for example) an entire squadron of such aircraft are delivered, along with the support equipment, spares, tools, test equipment, and enough operators, maintainers, etc are trained for that squadron to deploy. At least that's what happened when USMC declared IOC. USAF operates differently so the details of their definition is probably different.
Actually I exaggerated a bit with that 'years away'. IOC for the A seems likely in 2016, between August and September. And here's the definition.
https://www.f35.com/news/detail/depa...-all-services/
That was in 2013 - but they seem to be sticking with it.
airsound
Air Force F-35A initial operational capability (IOC) shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 12-24 aircraft, and Airmen are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct basic Close Air Support (CAS), Interdiction, and limited Suppression and Destruction of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD/DEAD) operations in a contested environment. Based on the current F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) schedule, the F-35A will reach the IOC milestone between August 2016 (Objective) and December 2016 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.
That was in 2013 - but they seem to be sticking with it.
airsound
F-35A IOC?
As others have said - late 2016, but "on time"
I think recent stories say the configuration must include block 3F and the 3rd gen helmet.
I think recent stories say the configuration must include block 3F and the 3rd gen helmet.
The USAF IOC standard is Block 3i, which is the Marines' 2B on newer processors. Like the Marines, they plan to do CAS with two LGBs, no gun, no HDTV and no Rover. GLWT.
On the bright side their flight envelope limits are less onerous, although A2A against a Su-35 will still look like Roseann Barr playing Serena Williams.
On the bright side their flight envelope limits are less onerous, although A2A against a Su-35 will still look like Roseann Barr playing Serena Williams.
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LO, you are assuming they are going to put the f-35 with 3I IOC in CAS. Although the F-35 has been tested in CAS. I doubt they would use the limited number they would have on CAS. I'm sure they can think of ways it can be better deployed. Leave CAS to the UCAV and 4th gen.
a1bill, you suggest
If that's the plan, why put CAS first in the air force definition of F-35A IOC? That will be declared, they say,
airsound
Leave CAS to the UCAV and 4th gen.
when the first operational squadron is equipped with 12-24 aircraft, and Airmen are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct basic Close Air Support,.... (
for airsound:
To answer the question on why deploy F-35 with limited CAS capability? Because it's what is there, and the same reason we had B-1's flying CAS over Afghanistan. The troops on the ground would have preferred A-10's in most cases, but they got what was available.
CAS that isn't "perfect" is better than NO CAS. Ask any of the infantrymen you know.
To amplify the other point, for the next few years there will be a hell of a lot more Vipers and Mudhens available to fly CAS than F-35's, thanks to what's in the inventory, and what squadrons are deployable.
KenV
Quote:
The vast majority of the sub hunting I did in my P-3 days used passive detection methods. I only used an active buoy once. Surface ships use active sonar far more.
Quote:
The vast majority of the sub hunting I did in my P-3 days used passive detection methods. I only used an active buoy once. Surface ships use active sonar far more.
Acoustic detection by active and passive bouys (or ships) is an entirely differrent discussion.
If it can't do CAS, don't say that it can. Not that complex.
Of course, the USAF has to say it can do CAS or they're undermining the Marines' claim that they can do any mission, in combat, right away.
Of course, the USAF has to say it can do CAS or they're undermining the Marines' claim that they can do any mission, in combat, right away.
LO, if you can show up and deliver a bomb when the ground commander asks for it, you can do CAS. End of. What I want to understand from you is how you interpret the state of play as "can't do CAS." (Please note, I am not a partisan for the USAF, I tend to be more of a Navy / Marine sort in my biases and preferences. The above, however, isn't colored by the inter-service pissing matches we are so good at over here ...)
"Of course, the USAF has to say it can do CAS or they're undermining the Marines' claim that they can do any mission, in combat, right away."
I think that in service what may matter is the willingness of commanders to actually use the F-35 for CAS. Besides the fact that an A-10 was well designed for the task, the fact that it was not much favored for any OTHER task probably made it more available for CAS and more likely to be devoted to that. F-16's, F15Es, even "strategic" bombers can do CAS and sometimes are, but they are not routinely used that way. In a conflict where there are many tasks to do - CA, SEAD, interdiction, EW etc., where will the "multi-role" aircraft be used? CAS, perhaps. Where will the A-10 be used - CAS most assuredly - to the delight of ground troops and their commanders.
I would also posit that the survivability of a few high-cost assets could also affect an air commander's willingness to assign them to CAS.
I think that in service what may matter is the willingness of commanders to actually use the F-35 for CAS. Besides the fact that an A-10 was well designed for the task, the fact that it was not much favored for any OTHER task probably made it more available for CAS and more likely to be devoted to that. F-16's, F15Es, even "strategic" bombers can do CAS and sometimes are, but they are not routinely used that way. In a conflict where there are many tasks to do - CA, SEAD, interdiction, EW etc., where will the "multi-role" aircraft be used? CAS, perhaps. Where will the A-10 be used - CAS most assuredly - to the delight of ground troops and their commanders.
I would also posit that the survivability of a few high-cost assets could also affect an air commander's willingness to assign them to CAS.
F-16's, F15Es, even "strategic" bombers can do CAS and sometimes are, but they are not routinely used that way. In a conflict where there are many tasks to do - CA, SEAD, interdiction, EW etc., where will the "multi-role" aircraft be used? CAS, perhaps. Where will the A-10 be used - CAS most assuredly - to the delight of ground troops and their commanders.
)Your point on "what does one do with scarce assets?" is spot on.
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Other than on goat farmers, I think the days of an A-10 doing a gun run in a modern conflict is over. There will be too many manpads etc. to take it out of the sky. I think it really is time the old girl was put down.