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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 3rd Sep 2015, 20:04
  #7541 (permalink)  
 
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That word 'operational is a bit puzzling, since IOC is still years away. But I suppose it's a step forward. Isn't it?
Initial operating capability or Initial operational capability (IOC) is the state achieved when a capability is available in its minimum usefully deployable form. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initia...ing_capability )

The term as used here probably means the airplane was delivered in a configuration that makes it (minimally) operational. IOC is achieved when (for example) an entire squadron of such aircraft are delivered, along with the support equipment, spares, tools, test equipment, and enough operators, maintainers, etc are trained for that squadron to deploy. At least that's what happened when USMC declared IOC. USAF operates differently so the details of their definition is probably different.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 20:34
  #7542 (permalink)  

 
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Actually I exaggerated a bit with that 'years away'. IOC for the A seems likely in 2016, between August and September. And here's the definition.
Air Force F-35A initial operational capability (IOC) shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 12-24 aircraft, and Airmen are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct basic Close Air Support (CAS), Interdiction, and limited Suppression and Destruction of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD/DEAD) operations in a contested environment. Based on the current F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) schedule, the F-35A will reach the IOC milestone between August 2016 (Objective) and December 2016 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.
https://www.f35.com/news/detail/depa...-all-services/

That was in 2013 - but they seem to be sticking with it.

airsound
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 21:31
  #7543 (permalink)  
 
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F-35A IOC?

As others have said - late 2016, but "on time"

I think recent stories say the configuration must include block 3F and the 3rd gen helmet.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 23:09
  #7544 (permalink)  
 
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The USAF IOC standard is Block 3i, which is the Marines' 2B on newer processors. Like the Marines, they plan to do CAS with two LGBs, no gun, no HDTV and no Rover. GLWT.

On the bright side their flight envelope limits are less onerous, although A2A against a Su-35 will still look like Roseann Barr playing Serena Williams.
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Old 3rd Sep 2015, 23:34
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Why would Serena Williams want to play tennis in a blindfold?
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 08:48
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We shall see Mr Fod, we shall see.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 13:27
  #7547 (permalink)  
 
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LO, you are assuming they are going to put the f-35 with 3I IOC in CAS. Although the F-35 has been tested in CAS. I doubt they would use the limited number they would have on CAS. I'm sure they can think of ways it can be better deployed. Leave CAS to the UCAV and 4th gen.

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Old 4th Sep 2015, 13:37
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a1bill, you suggest
Leave CAS to the UCAV and 4th gen.
If that's the plan, why put CAS first in the air force definition of F-35A IOC? That will be declared, they say,
when the first operational squadron is equipped with 12-24 aircraft, and Airmen are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct basic Close Air Support,.... (
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 13:55
  #7549 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not saying it can't, but why would you bother? Initially the 3I F-35 will be in very limited numbers. I really can't see it being sent off to Iraq, bombing goat farmers.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 14:17
  #7550 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by a1bill View Post
I'm not saying it can't, but why would you bother? Initially the 3I F-35 will be in very limited numbers. I really can't see it being sent off to Iraq, bombing goat farmers.
LGB's are actually pretty good for that. I think there is video of a GBU-12 somewhere on the net taking out a nice sized herd of goats ...

for airsound:
To answer the question on why deploy F-35 with limited CAS capability? Because it's what is there, and the same reason we had B-1's flying CAS over Afghanistan. The troops on the ground would have preferred A-10's in most cases, but they got what was available.

CAS that isn't "perfect" is better than NO CAS. Ask any of the infantrymen you know.

To amplify the other point, for the next few years there will be a hell of a lot more Vipers and Mudhens available to fly CAS than F-35's, thanks to what's in the inventory, and what squadrons are deployable.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 15:23
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KenV
Quote:
The vast majority of the sub hunting I did in my P-3 days used passive detection methods. I only used an active buoy once. Surface ships use active sonar far more.
Ken, I think the discussion was about radar cross section, and it was a good point to remember that submarines were indeed some of the first radar cross section reduction, aka stealth, applications. The U-480 first tested Alberich rubber tiles @1940- long before the P-3. A good many submarines were lost in WWII as they were detected by radar on ships and aircraft and even blimps, and reducing RCS on the conning tower (sail) masts, snorkels etc. was deemed important.

Acoustic detection by active and passive bouys (or ships) is an entirely differrent discussion.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 17:17
  #7552 (permalink)  
 
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If it can't do CAS, don't say that it can. Not that complex.

Of course, the USAF has to say it can do CAS or they're undermining the Marines' claim that they can do any mission, in combat, right away.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 17:20
  #7553 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowObservable View Post
If it can't do CAS, don't say that it can. Not that complex.

Of course, the USAF has to say it can do CAS or they're undermining the Marines' claim that they can do any mission, in combat, right away.
LO, if you can show up and deliver a bomb when the ground commander asks for it, you can do CAS. End of. What I want to understand from you is how you interpret the state of play as "can't do CAS." (Please note, I am not a partisan for the USAF, I tend to be more of a Navy / Marine sort in my biases and preferences. The above, however, isn't colored by the inter-service pissing matches we are so good at over here ...)
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 17:20
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sandiego

The Alberich rubber tiles are for acoustic stealth, not RCS.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 18:41
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"Of course, the USAF has to say it can do CAS or they're undermining the Marines' claim that they can do any mission, in combat, right away."

I think that in service what may matter is the willingness of commanders to actually use the F-35 for CAS. Besides the fact that an A-10 was well designed for the task, the fact that it was not much favored for any OTHER task probably made it more available for CAS and more likely to be devoted to that. F-16's, F15Es, even "strategic" bombers can do CAS and sometimes are, but they are not routinely used that way. In a conflict where there are many tasks to do - CA, SEAD, interdiction, EW etc., where will the "multi-role" aircraft be used? CAS, perhaps. Where will the A-10 be used - CAS most assuredly - to the delight of ground troops and their commanders.

I would also posit that the survivability of a few high-cost assets could also affect an air commander's willingness to assign them to CAS.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 20:06
  #7556 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GlobalNav View Post
F-16's, F15Es, even "strategic" bombers can do CAS and sometimes are, but they are not routinely used that way. In a conflict where there are many tasks to do - CA, SEAD, interdiction, EW etc., where will the "multi-role" aircraft be used? CAS, perhaps. Where will the A-10 be used - CAS most assuredly - to the delight of ground troops and their commanders.
It appears that in a few years, the USAF will have let the A-10 go. (Wait, haven't we seen this movie before? )

Your point on "what does one do with scarce assets?" is spot on.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 21:37
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Other than on goat farmers, I think the days of an A-10 doing a gun run in a modern conflict is over. There will be too many manpads etc. to take it out of the sky. I think it really is time the old girl was put down.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 02:18
  #7558 (permalink)  
 
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Ah thanks tourist, I confused the two, I was thinking of the RAM the U-boats used on periscopes and snorkels late in the war.
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Old 7th Sep 2015, 22:28
  #7559 (permalink)  
 
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First internationally assembled F-35 flies...

http://theaviationist.com/2015/09/07...-first-flight/

-RP
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Old 8th Sep 2015, 02:02
  #7560 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by a1bill View Post
Other than on goat farmers, I think the days of an A-10 doing a gun run in a modern conflict is over. There will be too many manpads etc. to take it out of the sky. I think it really is time the old girl was put down.
And the F-35 will fare better? REALLY???
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