F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Seeing as we're talking about the longbow now...
The biggest myth is that the longbow was an English weapon wielded by English archers. It was in fact a Welsh weapon wielded in the main at Agincourt, Crecy, and Poitiers, by Welsh archers (albeit in the service of the English army).
http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/the-welsh-longbow/
Now stand by for epic thread drift....
No real offence taken Courtney. I get as frustrated as anyone with some of the cr@p the press can turn out at times - don't even get me started on the Daily Fail!!
There's whole lot of myth re the longbow.
The chosen battleground favored the English forces
http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/the-welsh-longbow/
Now stand by for epic thread drift....
No real offence taken Courtney. I get as frustrated as anyone with some of the cr@p the press can turn out at times - don't even get me started on the Daily Fail!!
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I did try to be clear and choose my words carefully there. I deliberately said OFTEN and certainly never meant to imply "always". There has been plenty of honest reporting, but the stuff that commonly gets picked up on is the bad news, especially if it is written in a sensationalist fashion.
The above talks about "bad news" that is "written in a sensationalist fashion." I believe that good news can be (and often is) also "written in a sensationalist fashion."
Is it possible that the sensational claims made of the F-35 and attributed here repeatedly as LM "lies" and "PR" is actually a product of sensationalist press, bloggers, and fanboys? I believe it is, because when one looks at the actual statements made by the actual folks running the program, they've been pretty consistent that the F-35 was optimized for the air-to-ground role and that compromises were made in its air-to-air performance from its very inception.
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The biggest myth is that the longbow was an English weapon wielded by English archers. It was in fact a Welsh weapon wielded in the main at Agincourt, Crecy, and Poitiers, by Welsh archers (albeit in the service of the English army).
But you have to ask yourself Ken, where did the press, bloggers, and fanboys get their information from? None have flown the aircraft, so all opinions must be formed by external sources - ie; those that are building and funding the aircraft.
I know that many will find it hard to believe, but journalists generally don't just make stuff up (we wouldn't last very long in our jobs if we did). Whether we are overly negative or optimistic about the programme, or somewhere imbetween, our views are being shaped by information that is being imparted by others. So now ask yourself, who would have a vested interested in over-inflating the F-35's capabilities, if that is indeed what has been going on?
Now that's not a can of worms I want to open Ken (see the many Scotland independence threads on this forum to find out why). But to answer your questions about the relations between the constituent nations of the UK - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10
I know that many will find it hard to believe, but journalists generally don't just make stuff up (we wouldn't last very long in our jobs if we did). Whether we are overly negative or optimistic about the programme, or somewhere imbetween, our views are being shaped by information that is being imparted by others. So now ask yourself, who would have a vested interested in over-inflating the F-35's capabilities, if that is indeed what has been going on?
You got me there! My American background failed me in that respect. In the US there was lots of competition between the Virginians vs the New Yorkers vs the Vermonters vs the Bostonians, etc etc. But in the end we (generally) always saw ourselves as Americans first, and Virginians, New Yorkers, etc second. It keeps escaping me that "English" is not the same as "Welsh" nor the same as "British". (English and Welsh are surely both British, right, or have I got that wrong? And Ireland and Scotland are also British?)
Last edited by melmothtw; 5th Aug 2015 at 17:55.
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But you have to ask yourself Ken, where did the press, bloggers, and fanboys get their information from?
So now ask yourself, who would have a vested interested in over-inflating the F-35's capabilities, if that is indeed what has been going on?
Well, it seems to me that the press, bloggers, and fanboys (both positive AND negative) get their basic information from the same source. Some sensationalize that information in one direction, and others in another direction. Surely, this cuts both ways. Or am I missing something?
I'd suggest that the tack taken by the particular journalist, blogger, or fanboy in any particular story depends in a large part on where they have got their information from - LM/JPO etc or the GAO/POGO etc. Leaving one to draw the conclusion that is the former that is putting out the information that is leading the stories that might be over-hyping the aircraft's capabilities.
If over-inflating capabilities sells newspapers (or magazines or blogs or whatever) there would be "vested interests" doing exactly that. By the same token, if making sensationalist negative charges sells newspapers (or magazines or blogs or whatever) there would be "vested interests" doing that. Surely, this cuts both ways. Or am I missing something?
Anyhow, its 6pm here and I need to grab my supper. Will pick this up another time. All the best....
Is it possible that the sensational claims made of the F-35 and attributed here repeatedly as LM "lies" and "PR" is actually a product of sensationalist press, bloggers, and fanboys?
No. See p9 and p22. And note that the June 2007 date precedes any export contracts, and is earlier than 99.9 per cent of the public criticism of the project.
f-35 lightning ii a new generation of fighter f-35 free pdf download
The acquisition and O&S cost numbers on p22 are particularly amusing.
No. See p9 and p22. And note that the June 2007 date precedes any export contracts, and is earlier than 99.9 per cent of the public criticism of the project.
f-35 lightning ii a new generation of fighter f-35 free pdf download
The acquisition and O&S cost numbers on p22 are particularly amusing.
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Now that's not a can of worms I want to open Ken (see the many Scotland independence threads on this forum to find out why). But to answer your questions about the relations between the constituent nations of the UK - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10
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So they did claim it is three times better at air-to-air than "legacy" aircraft.
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I think if this did sell newspapers in the way that you suggest, we'd all be doing it a lot more about other platforms besides the F-35....and we're not.
1. They'd all be doing it? I don't ascribe this behavior to "all" the press. I believe most of the press is more responsible than that.
2. Extreme high visibility programs like the F-35 tend to generate what I will call a feeding frenzy. Irresponsible press make sensationalist claims, the claims go viral, and the responsible press picks it up. This happened with the end of the world in 2012 "prophecy" (based on a Mayan calendar!!), with the vaccines cause autism frenzy, with the Y2K tech apocalypse, with the silicon breast implant frenzy, the Alar-tainted apple frenzy, and many more too numerous to mention. The V-22 (another big, hi viz program) attracted its share of feeding frenzies. As did the M-1 Abrams tank, way back in the day. Even Space X vs ULA/EELV generated a feeding frenzy. F-35 and V-22 are unique in that the programs went on and on and on and so did their feeding frenzies.
Or maybe I'm seeing this all wrong.
I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle Ken - the F-35 is certainly a high profile programme that attracts more than its fair share of attention, but a lot of the bad attention is self-inflicted with unrealistic timelines, underestimated budgets, and over-optimistic expectations.
Could a LM statement, "three times better at air-to-air", be sensationalized into "three times better in a close-in turning fight"?
Well, no. But actually, nobody has said that, or claimed that LockMart that. What Flynn did say was:
If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there."
I think the fact that you place media criticism of your pet project in the same category as anti-vaxxers and the Mayan Apocalypse says much more about you than it does about the media, BTW.
Or maybe I'm seeing this all wrong.
Well, no. But actually, nobody has said that, or claimed that LockMart that. What Flynn did say was:
If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there."
I think the fact that you place media criticism of your pet project in the same category as anti-vaxxers and the Mayan Apocalypse says much more about you than it does about the media, BTW.
Or maybe I'm seeing this all wrong.
Last edited by LowObservable; 5th Aug 2015 at 21:23.
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CM, yes, they say they re-evaluate as it progresses and more in known. It started at 3 times, then 4 times and now 4 vs 8 red air is 6:1 LER. They said they get an even better LER when they use piloted sims. I haven't seen it said what the full system sims are giving.
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LO, I don't think anyone would say that the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon have the same EM. As it is well known that they don't. I think the included word, comparable needs to be taken into account. They are saying the EM is closest to the FA-18. I would put the FA-18 as comparable to the F-16 or Typhoon in EM.
The sims are run by USAF, USN and the partners. I wouldn't discount their professional assessment.
The sims are run by USAF, USN and the partners. I wouldn't discount their professional assessment.
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a1bill,
I'll give you a choice of F-18 or F-16, I'm taking the Typhoon, post 3-9 line kills only. We are just testing the EM, not the weapon system. 100 000 cases of beer to the winner.
Outwards turn for combat "GO".
I'll PM my address so you can FedEx the beer!
I'll give you a choice of F-18 or F-16, I'm taking the Typhoon, post 3-9 line kills only. We are just testing the EM, not the weapon system. 100 000 cases of beer to the winner.
Outwards turn for combat "GO".
I'll PM my address so you can FedEx the beer!
Yes. In my experience that's normally where it's to be found.
There does seem to be a bit of a lynch mob mentality at times in this thread (albeit with some honourable exceptions) towards anyone who has the temerity not to tuck in behind the approved local orthodoxy that the F35 is and will remain a lemon. The task of teasing out the truth isn't helped by ad hominem attacks on those with whom one disagrees, however wrong people may think they are.
There does seem to be a bit of a lynch mob mentality at times in this thread (albeit with some honourable exceptions) towards anyone who has the temerity not to tuck in behind the approved local orthodoxy that the F35 is and will remain a lemon. The task of teasing out the truth isn't helped by ad hominem attacks on those with whom one disagrees, however wrong people may think they are.