F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Sometimes, the spin gets to be annoying.
a few excerpts, and my comments ...
By Andrea Shalal-Esa WASHINGTON | Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:57pm EST
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force on Monday approved the formal start of pilot training on the A-model of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at a Florida military base, paving the way for 36 expert pilots to be trained next year as instructors for the new stealth warplane.
Is that a new USAF designation? I know about Command Pilots, but Expert Pilots? Is the journo maybe laying it on a bit thick, or is this extracted from a USAF PR release?
Maybe the pilots will be experts after the training, then. 
Sorry, but sometimes I get annoyed with the PR machine.
a few excerpts, and my comments ...
By Andrea Shalal-Esa WASHINGTON | Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:57pm EST
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force on Monday approved the formal start of pilot training on the A-model of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at a Florida military base, paving the way for 36 expert pilots to be trained next year as instructors for the new stealth warplane.
Rice said training pilots to fly the F-35 posed some unique challenges because it is the Air Force's most complex weapons system and there is a large degree of concurrency, or overlap, between development and production on the program
Sorry, but sometimes I get annoyed with the PR machine.
PWe - I assume you're aware that the core of the 32000 pound thrust GE F110-GE-132 is originally from the B-1's F101, and that the F101 core was also the basis of the CFM56? And that GE had a notion in the 1990s to develop a 40000 lb thrust fighter engine with the upgunned CFM56-7 core?
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"paving the way for 36 expert pilots to be trained next year as instructors for the new stealth warplane"
I bet if you look it up, you will find that the 36 pilots are already experts in their field and are being further trained as f-35 instructors.
You don't really think that they take a pleb off the street for instant training as an instructor, do you?
I bet if you look it up, you will find that the 36 pilots are already experts in their field and are being further trained as f-35 instructors.
You don't really think that they take a pleb off the street for instant training as an instructor, do you?
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"And that GE had a notion in the 1990s to develop a 40000 lb thrust fighter engine with the upgunned CFM56-7 core?"
If it has any merit, all they need is someone to fund it...FAIL
They also have a plan to upgrade the f414 for the USN if they will fund it...FAIL
If it has any merit, all they need is someone to fund it...FAIL
They also have a plan to upgrade the f414 for the USN if they will fund it...FAIL
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Ares: JSF Is Not F-16-Priced
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You need better sources, Bill likes to skew numbers like this "The URF for the 2012 buy is $55.6 million, engines included." what he doesn't tell the reader is that the $55.6 URF is in base year dollars, the sar 2012 year dollar for a SH is ~$66m. He then compairs it to an LRIP 2016 price (surprise LRIP's are dearer than full producton which is ~$73m)..Sweetman is a funny guy, great sense of humour, but he fails as a credible journalist
Last edited by JSFfan; 19th Dec 2012 at 08:31.
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Which is a very funny thing to say, Bills prices and analysis have been proved right time and time AND time again.
Whats the real proof - the JSF would be here now and in service at US$50m as Lockheed and its apologists have maintained all along.
So who's right then JSFfan its a simple question!! reality or your assertions?
Whats the real proof - the JSF would be here now and in service at US$50m as Lockheed and its apologists have maintained all along.
So who's right then JSFfan its a simple question!! reality or your assertions?
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Sweetman underbid the FRP URF SH by ~$11m and over bid the f-35 by ~$11m both in 2012 yr dollars, if you think a $22m error isn't having a great sense of humour, I don't know what is. The guy is a clown who quotes Kopp for gosh sakes
Last edited by JSFfan; 19th Dec 2012 at 09:38.
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I see you went with your assertions over reality...
I'm going to take notice of some very wise advice I was once given and take my leave.
"Arguing with idiot is like wrestling a pig in mud, you'll get dirty and the pig loves it"
I'm going to take notice of some very wise advice I was once given and take my leave.
"Arguing with idiot is like wrestling a pig in mud, you'll get dirty and the pig loves it"
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It's funny how even the forum boss the typhoon site gets abusive, I guess eurocanard fanboys have nothing left.
the 2011 SAR for the fa-18 and the f-35
look up the 2018 FRP 2012 BY for f-35a ~$73m
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/F-35Dec11FinalSAR-3-29-2012.pdf
look up the 2012 TY for the SH ~$66.6m
http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/logistic...DEC%202011.pdf
if you need help, you only need to ask
the 2011 SAR for the fa-18 and the f-35
look up the 2018 FRP 2012 BY for f-35a ~$73m
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/F-35Dec11FinalSAR-3-29-2012.pdf
look up the 2012 TY for the SH ~$66.6m
http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/logistic...DEC%202011.pdf
if you need help, you only need to ask
Last edited by JSFfan; 19th Dec 2012 at 14:22.
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It's the people who knock the programme and go to extremes to use silly numbers that seem to care the most about the f-35 price.
Australia estimated the URF at $75m in 2008 and hasn't changed their opinion
we had one of those opposition 'reviews' back in 2007/8,
Canada will buy the f-35, they aren't stupid or corrupt and they aren't looking for a stop gap like australia did, ordering 24 SH/growlers
Australia estimated the URF at $75m in 2008 and hasn't changed their opinion
we had one of those opposition 'reviews' back in 2007/8,
Canada will buy the f-35, they aren't stupid or corrupt and they aren't looking for a stop gap like australia did, ordering 24 SH/growlers
Last edited by JSFfan; 19th Dec 2012 at 13:05.
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You don't really think that they take a pleb off the street for instant training as an instructor, do you?
JSF fan, I am reasonably familiar with how the US Navy and US Air Force fill the billets in Fleet Introduction squadrons.
You first take pilots who fly something else, run them through a conversion course (which typically involves a lot of OEM experts, folks from the Test Center, folks who were involved in RDT & E, and so on) and from that create a training cadre for your first classes to go through and begin to populate / man / standup your line squadrons.
With most new aircraft, the FIT team itself (and what the USAF call it, I forget their term) is still in a learning mode after a number of classes have gone through.
I may just be a nitpicking old fart, but the term "expert" looks to me to be a bit of hyperbole.
How many Fleet Introduction Teams have you been on, JSF fan?
You first take pilots who fly something else, run them through a conversion course (which typically involves a lot of OEM experts, folks from the Test Center, folks who were involved in RDT & E, and so on) and from that create a training cadre for your first classes to go through and begin to populate / man / standup your line squadrons.
With most new aircraft, the FIT team itself (and what the USAF call it, I forget their term) is still in a learning mode after a number of classes have gone through.
I may just be a nitpicking old fart, but the term "expert" looks to me to be a bit of hyperbole.
How many Fleet Introduction Teams have you been on, JSF fan?
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 19th Dec 2012 at 15:13.
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JSFfan
When the Govt pays up it pays in current dollars - not 2006 or 2008 or 1770 dollars - as it raises the money from taxpayers in that year - discussion of past prices is a nonsense as we never get to pay that number
The customers are panicking because they are faced with paying very substantially over the odds when and if the damn thing ever works
When the Govt pays up it pays in current dollars - not 2006 or 2008 or 1770 dollars - as it raises the money from taxpayers in that year - discussion of past prices is a nonsense as we never get to pay that number
The customers are panicking because they are faced with paying very substantially over the odds when and if the damn thing ever works
Harry, it appears that two models work well enough to begin training the cadre, see above.
What do you mean by "if the damn thing ever works" there?
What do you mean by "if the damn thing ever works" there?
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as far as I know there are still issues with the software (see dozens of threads above) etc etc - it sure as hell is late and there is no definite in service date
My point on price is that JSFfan is constantly telling us the p rice hasn't gone up by much as its all in 1918 $$ or similar
I'd be happy if I thought LM would accept the number of dollars but they won't - they will bill for 2015 $ in 2015
My point on price is that JSFfan is constantly telling us the p rice hasn't gone up by much as its all in 1918 $$ or similar
I'd be happy if I thought LM would accept the number of dollars but they won't - they will bill for 2015 $ in 2015
Harry, US media report a deployment to Japan in 2017 for an F-35 squadron, presumably to replace a USMC squadron currently in place.
I do not wish to quibble about price, as I agree that it's a pretty expensive bird.
As to growing pains, IIRC CF-18 and F-18A's had problems with tail (vertical stab) cracks early on. Somehow, F-18 turned into a decent tactical aircraft.
Are you sure that your doom and gloom view isn't overly influenced by the price problem?
I do not wish to quibble about price, as I agree that it's a pretty expensive bird.
As to growing pains, IIRC CF-18 and F-18A's had problems with tail (vertical stab) cracks early on. Somehow, F-18 turned into a decent tactical aircraft.
Are you sure that your doom and gloom view isn't overly influenced by the price problem?
MEADS: calling on European Air Defense Professionals
Delted, sorry, I meant to post a new thread.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 19th Dec 2012 at 16:17.