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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 16th Dec 2014, 20:22
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Dear Mr Ovies,

Even a cursory knowledge of the J 31 vs the F 35 would suggest the similarities are only skin deep (or perhaps even not even that deep). There are two engines lurking in the J 31 for a start...

Thing is, current software design programs concerned with The Majik Of Stealth tend towards a certain similarity in terms of what a manned stealth aircraft looks like.

I'm not suggesting that elements of the J 31's design may not have been acquired through the normal industrial games present in our cruel and treacherous world, merely that the overall aim and direction of the Chinese program is quite different.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 20:35
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Absolutely, some would say that the Chinese have not been limited by trying to have one common design across 3 different aircraft. Without the STOVL requirement driving the design the J-31 can use a 2 engine set up perfectly well.


I'm sure many in the West would like to know how deep the similarities go, and I'm sure many in the East would like to dig deeper into Lockheed's vaults.


The similarities in design are played out across the emerging deep strike UAVs too, hence the X-47B, Neuron, Taranis and the Chinese one (forgotten the name).
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 20:47
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Quoted as 'Sharp Sword' by western media.

The Chinese seem to have a 'sword' thing going on with their combat drones, 'Dark Sword' floating around somewhere too. It's a little disappointing, they're usually much more creative with their names.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 21:03
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Of course, thanks. It probably sounds better in Mandarin anyway!


Why do we (in the UK) stick to weather related names? Obviously historical connections also play a factor (Typhoon and Lightning at least), I am not sure if this is the case in China also?


Thread drift warning....
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 21:22
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Weather related names? Because they sound punchy, but maybe they'll follow the decline of our formerly excellent Air Force. Expect the BAES Storm, the Eurofighter Gale, the EADS Wind and the Joint-European Drizzle.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 21:22
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Unfortunately the mainland Chinese use simplified Mandarin to name their aircraft, which is an affront to any educated person.

Unofficial names are usually much more colourful, referencing Chinese poetry or art.

Although not an air-breathing craft, 'Jade Rabbit' was an example of their creative use of a figure from Chinese mythology which was, at first, unofficial, but was eventually accepted as the formal name.

The Western repetition of aircraft names from the past does suggest that either a) your language is somewhat limited, or b) your imagination requires improvement, or c) you're hoping that the success of the original will instantly transfer itself onto the newest version.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 21:37
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Pretty sure I saw an advert for a 'Jade Rabbit' someplace. Don't think that was an air-breather either.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 21:58
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The MoD A Bit Wet Towards The End Of The Week?
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 22:07
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What's unimaginative and limited language about "Dave"
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 02:47
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Han Dynasty poets call the rabbit on the Moon the "Jade Rabbit" (玉兔) or the "Gold Rabbit" (金兔), and these phrases were often used in place of the word for the Moon.

Yutu (Chinese: 玉兔; pinyin: Yłtł; literally: "Jade Rabbit") is an unmanned lunar rover that forms part of the Chinese Chang'e 3 mission to the Moon.

So there really has been a "Jade Rabbit" on the moon since 14 December 2013 - although it has been immobile since 25 January 2014 (42 days after landing) and its instruments continue degrading. However, despite having been designed for only a 3-month life-span, it is still able to communicate with Earth radio stations.


We now return you to your regularly-scheduled partisan bickering over the F-35.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 11:07
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That will be quite enough of that, Mr Whyte.

The visible influence of the F-35 design on the J-31 could be the result of sophisticated cyber-espionage. Or it could be the result of looking at public media briefings from 1996. Any real stolen secrets would not be apparent externally from a distance, and would most probably not be incorporated at all on the J-31 prototype. You might find some on the RCS model.

I'd be really surprised to see LRIP 1/2 jets at Luke.
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Old 18th Dec 2014, 23:42
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RAAF F-35A x 2 Arrive at Luke AFB, AZ

The first 2 x F-35A for RAAF were delivered to Luke AFB, AZ on 18 Dec 14.

Arizona lawmakers tour state military bases - FOX 10 News | fox10phoenix.com

There will be 18 x F-35A at Luke AFB by 19 Dec 14. Training for Italy and Norway is expected to start in 2015. Currently, 144 x F-35A are due to be based at Luke AFB by 2024.

http://www.luke.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123434914

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...s-at-luke-afb/

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Old 19th Dec 2014, 15:06
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Glendale Home Depot needs to stock up on white paint, then.
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 23:14
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The War Nerd: More proof the US defense industry has nothing to do with defending America | PandoDaily

If the RAAF - or rather the Australian government had an ounce of sense, they'd be offering the USAF to take every last A10 off their hands. Its an aircraft that actually does the job. The F35 is going to be totally useless in the kind of war that we have been and will be fighting. Expecting the UK to see the uselessness of the F35 may be beyond hope, but the Australians have a chance of realising that the aircraft they need is something that can be used really effectively against ground targets.
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Old 23rd Dec 2014, 13:58
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Royalist:
1. Do the RAAF have the tanking assets to deploy A-10's to where you need them to be?
2. How does the RAAF get ahold of the tech data, fixtures, tooling, and spares to keep an A-10 fleet alive and well?
3. Pursuant question 2, how big of an A-10 fleet do you envision as meeting RAAF needs? That answer to that informs how much overhead is represented in establishing the support structure to keep an old (albeit wonderful) aircraft flying into the future.
4. That the F-35 is very expensive, and not getting any cheaper, is not in dispute. What is in question is: what are options, what is to be done about it ... and how do you support and maintain your fleet of whatever for a few decades?

With the F-35, at least, I'd make a wager that spares and maintenance support will be more readily available. For a price, of course.
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Old 23rd Dec 2014, 15:29
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Spot on, Lonewolf. It's the only game in town for sustainability without buying from ex-Soviet scrap metal merchants, Sweden or France. Mind you...
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Old 23rd Dec 2014, 15:34
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Courtney:
I guess there's a line of inquiry open to considering why the latest Grippen wasn't chosen for RAAF needs.
As I am not from Australia, and do not understand the nuances of their procurement challenges (with a much smaller budget than we have here in the USofA) it may have been a question that answered itself during the requirements definition phase.

Part of Australian strategic posture seems to mirror American strategic posture: we'll do any fighting in the future as part of a coalition or alliance. The advantage to having similar kit may be at the strategic level as well as at an operational level. F-35 in that regard fits a particular strategic need.
For a price, of course.
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Old 23rd Dec 2014, 16:50
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The USMC just got their first "C"

OK, on first blush I thought this must have been a typo saying the US Marines just took delivery of a "C" model. I was not aware that the C for the USMC was this far along. I thought the B was to be the main push by the USMC for years to come, and C only much later. I realize that this pre-dates squadron service by many years, but still caught me by surprise. Article indicates it is the first of 80 for the USMC.

USMC receives first F-35C - 12/23/2014 - Flight Global

Also notes first 2 Aussie deliveries- to Luke AFB for training.

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Old 23rd Dec 2014, 17:10
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.............

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Old 23rd Dec 2014, 18:30
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OK, on first blush I thought this must have been a typo saying the US Marines just took delivery of a "C" model. I was not aware that the C for the USMC was this far along. I thought the B was to be the main push by the USMC for years to come, and C only much later. I realize that this pre-dates squadron service by many years, but still caught me by surprise. Article indicates it is the first of 80 for the USMC.

USMC receives first F-35C - 12/23/2014 - Flight Global

Also notes first 2 Aussie deliveries- to Luke AFB for training.
Is this not part of the plan to upgrade some of their legacy F/A-18s to support the Fleet air-wings?
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