Troops returning from Helmand pay for own flights
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Fincastle, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I most certainly am not ashamed of myself. I am expressing an opinion based on 30 years of service. You have every right to disagree, that's why Pprune exists, to promote open discussion.
So in this "30 years experience" how much time was spent working alongside each of the 85,000 useless civil servants?
Or wasn't it, and you just believed what you heard? Lots of changes have happened in the last 20 years old bean.
Fincastle, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I most certainly am not ashamed of myself. I am expressing an opinion based on 30 years of service. You have every right to disagree, that's why Pprune exists, to promote open discussion.
So in this "30 years experience" how much time was spent working alongside each of the 85,000 useless civil servants?
Or wasn't it, and you just believed what you heard? Lots of changes have happened in the last 20 years old bean.
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F84
I don't think I was useless when I found submarines for navigators to play with and I don't think I was useless when I worked swapped hats and became a civil servant with the MOD.
I understand the sentiment, but you've overplayed your hand. The RAF and Civil Service have their oxygen thiefs in equal measure and they each have a lot of hard working, professional lads and lasses too.
And the vast majority are all essential members of the ever dwindling thing we call "defence".
I don't think I was useless when I found submarines for navigators to play with and I don't think I was useless when I worked swapped hats and became a civil servant with the MOD.
I understand the sentiment, but you've overplayed your hand. The RAF and Civil Service have their oxygen thiefs in equal measure and they each have a lot of hard working, professional lads and lasses too.
And the vast majority are all essential members of the ever dwindling thing we call "defence".
F84,
If your age is correct, and I think it is, then you retired at least 8 years ago, and, more to the point, the start of your "....30 years service...." was 38 years ago!!! Many things have changed in the past 38 years.
TOFO has a valid point, there are good and bad in all organizations. I have been LM for some civil servants, who in my opinion did a good job. The MOD got outstanding value for money when you consider they were only being paid £16-17,000 a year.
I have come across many "oxygen thiefs" in blue suits, I don't think I would say the same about any civil servant I have worked with closely.....
However - as you have, correctly, pointed out, you are entitled to your opinion. People are also entitled to disagree with you, and, for what it is worth, I DO......
If your age is correct, and I think it is, then you retired at least 8 years ago, and, more to the point, the start of your "....30 years service...." was 38 years ago!!! Many things have changed in the past 38 years.
TOFO has a valid point, there are good and bad in all organizations. I have been LM for some civil servants, who in my opinion did a good job. The MOD got outstanding value for money when you consider they were only being paid £16-17,000 a year.
I have come across many "oxygen thiefs" in blue suits, I don't think I would say the same about any civil servant I have worked with closely.....
However - as you have, correctly, pointed out, you are entitled to your opinion. People are also entitled to disagree with you, and, for what it is worth, I DO......
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I admit defeat & hereby withdraw my comments about civil servants & apologise for any hurt feelings so caused.
I have ammended the initial comment to reflect this.
I have ammended the initial comment to reflect this.
Last edited by fincastle84; 19th Aug 2010 at 12:35. Reason: Additional content
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Just incase there is anyone else like Fincastle who believes what they read in the papers, the actual numbers of Civil servants breaks down more or less like this:
The total number of 85,370 civilians actually includes:
2,300 RFA staff who crew ships refuelling and reprovisioning the navy (in most other countries this role would be more likely to be performed by the military);
9,800 locally-employed civilians who play vital roles as interpreters, guides etc, often in active theatres of war;
11,000 industrial grades including warehouse staff, drivers and some messenger staff.
9,700 employed by trading funds - the Army Base Repair Organisation (ABRO) and DARA are vital to the maintenance of the armed forces' equipment and again in some countries would be staffed by the military.
1,060 teachers and others involved in Service Childrens Education.
7,450 who make up the MDP, MGS, and MPGS.
Various Defence Intelligence and Rocket scientist types, roughly another 4,000.
If you then do the sums of what’s left you discover that of those 41,000 'admin' type civil servants, nearly 30,000 of them are in clerical grades, doing admin jobs that would otherwise be done by forces personnel for a lot more money and overheads.
The ratio of civilian to military is about 1 civil servant to every 3.6 servicemen/women. The Tpapers compare them unfavourably to our NATO colleagues, but France has a ratio of 1 to 3 and the United States have a 1 to 1.8 ration.
The total number of 85,370 civilians actually includes:
2,300 RFA staff who crew ships refuelling and reprovisioning the navy (in most other countries this role would be more likely to be performed by the military);
9,800 locally-employed civilians who play vital roles as interpreters, guides etc, often in active theatres of war;
11,000 industrial grades including warehouse staff, drivers and some messenger staff.
9,700 employed by trading funds - the Army Base Repair Organisation (ABRO) and DARA are vital to the maintenance of the armed forces' equipment and again in some countries would be staffed by the military.
1,060 teachers and others involved in Service Childrens Education.
7,450 who make up the MDP, MGS, and MPGS.
Various Defence Intelligence and Rocket scientist types, roughly another 4,000.
If you then do the sums of what’s left you discover that of those 41,000 'admin' type civil servants, nearly 30,000 of them are in clerical grades, doing admin jobs that would otherwise be done by forces personnel for a lot more money and overheads.
The ratio of civilian to military is about 1 civil servant to every 3.6 servicemen/women. The Tpapers compare them unfavourably to our NATO colleagues, but France has a ratio of 1 to 3 and the United States have a 1 to 1.8 ration.
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Sometimes the civvy way seems to be better.
JTIDS or anyone
Care to expand on how Brize movers should run an airport
Care to expand on how Brize movers should run an airport
No idea how they managed to extract, sort, and move the bags between holds at Atlanta, but when we got to the final destination our bags were there. And along the UK leg they had managed to separate the domestic and international bags. There were also firearms in the hold on the first two legs.
I've lost count of the number of explanations in this forum about the difficulties in moving bags between airframes and the impossibility of checking in any less than 6 hours before take off. If the civvy world can manage to do it as a matter of course then clearly it can be done. BTW it was three different airframes to boot. MD80, 767, A320.
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No idea how they managed to extract, sort, and move the bags between holds at Atlanta
If the civvy world can manage to do it as a matter of course then clearly it can be done
You are comparing two totally different things - transiting through a hub with connecting flights and getting on a flight to an operational theatre. Nice schedules with enough serviceable aircraft available would be lovely out of Brize - but it won't happen for a plethora of reasons.
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No one has mentioned that there has been pressure eased on the ageing Tristar fleet with most of the green on RiP flights being taken from other airports of chartered civ flights via other locations (not Cyrpus) and onward with 99Sqn. Works very well with minimal fuss and delay with top notch facilites for the layover before onward movement straight into BSN. I know most of 4 Bde were moved in and 11 Bde out this way.
Someone also suggested earlier using civ flights for Cyp - BZZ -- cant really see civi airlines being equipped for casevac??
Someone also suggested earlier using civ flights for Cyp - BZZ -- cant really see civi airlines being equipped for casevac??
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Flik Roll
Not true, old boy. I have flown a civil Airbus A330 on numerous occasions with a casevac fit. It took three rows of outboard seats to accommodate the stretcher and harness. There was a large oxygen bottle to hand, plus a doctor and nurse with all the requisite kit in adjacent seats. Of course, it was all paid for by the patient's insurance company. All very similar to what I recall seeing as a passenger on a RAF VC10 flying from RAF Muharraq to RAF Carterton East many years ago.
Not true, old boy. I have flown a civil Airbus A330 on numerous occasions with a casevac fit. It took three rows of outboard seats to accommodate the stretcher and harness. There was a large oxygen bottle to hand, plus a doctor and nurse with all the requisite kit in adjacent seats. Of course, it was all paid for by the patient's insurance company. All very similar to what I recall seeing as a passenger on a RAF VC10 flying from RAF Muharraq to RAF Carterton East many years ago.
216 might be 'Two Sixteen' to people on the squadron, but to most others it was often 'Twenty one and sixpence'. Or even 'Guinea and Tanner'. That's 21s 6d or 21/6 for those who remember good old pre-1971 £ s d. Just as 111 or 'Treble One' was often 'One eleven' to other F-4 squadrons - and 617 was 'Six Seventeenth Bombardment Squadron' or 'One raid, one dead dog' squadron to real bomber squadrons...
Ahhh, ooh yes. Some of those aeromed sisters did indeed have 'all the requisite kit'.....
...a doctor and nurse with all the requisite kit in adjacent seats.
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Rex,
Although you can put an aero med fit on most civil types the set up on the Tri Stars and C-17s allows for a complete CCAST (Critical Care) setup allowing the patient to be accessed as if in a hospital and although the C-17s take the majority of critical patients the Timmy still handles its fair share, as well as those less seriously injured who still require a stretcher. Unless dedicated to the role most civil carriers place the stretchers onto lowered seats which are not ideal for the patient or the aero med team.
Back to the original topic pax have to seek permission via PJHQ to leave the air bridge, and this is not often given. If pax do decide that a civil carrier suits them best then (if permitted) it is explained to them at great length that this is not a recognised route and they will have to pay for their own transport. The poor mover caught between PJHQ and the angry passenger is only the messenger, not responsible for the delay/ash cloud Greek ATC/broken aircraft, yet it is they who receive the brunt of the flack.
On another note the 216 crews will always offer to explain to passengers why the plane is broken or some country or other won't let us over fly them this week.
Although you can put an aero med fit on most civil types the set up on the Tri Stars and C-17s allows for a complete CCAST (Critical Care) setup allowing the patient to be accessed as if in a hospital and although the C-17s take the majority of critical patients the Timmy still handles its fair share, as well as those less seriously injured who still require a stretcher. Unless dedicated to the role most civil carriers place the stretchers onto lowered seats which are not ideal for the patient or the aero med team.
Back to the original topic pax have to seek permission via PJHQ to leave the air bridge, and this is not often given. If pax do decide that a civil carrier suits them best then (if permitted) it is explained to them at great length that this is not a recognised route and they will have to pay for their own transport. The poor mover caught between PJHQ and the angry passenger is only the messenger, not responsible for the delay/ash cloud Greek ATC/broken aircraft, yet it is they who receive the brunt of the flack.
On another note the 216 crews will always offer to explain to passengers why the plane is broken or some country or other won't let us over fly them this week.
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rusty_monkey
Your point about CCAST is well taken.
The lowered seats on an A330 presented the stretcher at about waist height, which made it easy to move on and off, as well as giving the medics the same access to the patient as a 'gurney' or operating table, albeit from one side only.
There used to be a first class hospital in Akrotiri, what is it like now?
BEagle
About the nurses' 'kit.' Absolutely right, Sir!
Your point about CCAST is well taken.
The lowered seats on an A330 presented the stretcher at about waist height, which made it easy to move on and off, as well as giving the medics the same access to the patient as a 'gurney' or operating table, albeit from one side only.
There used to be a first class hospital in Akrotiri, what is it like now?
BEagle
About the nurses' 'kit.' Absolutely right, Sir!
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I am slightly biased towards TPMH as my partner would not be here if it wasn't for the staff there. The infrastructure is tired and could use investment and IMHO we could make better use of the facility with regard to the repat of Herrick casualties. One interesting dit... An OF9/10 grade civil servant who had quite openly spoken of its closure suffered a heart attack returning via akrotiri and guess were they got treated. Oh the fickle goods of fate.
I am slightly biased towards TPMH
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Movers and AT
Of course the whole AT schedule runs around movers! some of the troops being moved are deliberately delayed so that there is no flow clash at home.. Any AT captain will have heard this phrase before and wilted at the prospect of explaining this poor excuse. The whole military AT system revolves around a handful of guys at an Oxfordshire base being available!! Perhaps some of the guys sitting around at an certain middle east base could come home and help out.
I have heard of aircraft being told they couldn’t leave early from Iraq because of flow clash, fortunately the message was drowned out by the incoming/air-raid siren!!
This short-sighted way of operating winds people up no end and denies the aircraft gingers the opportunity to fix and faults being carried. They are denied the time to fix them before they are turned round. Yes 10hrs might seem a long ground time but thats only 4hrs fix time!!
I have heard of aircraft being told they couldn’t leave early from Iraq because of flow clash, fortunately the message was drowned out by the incoming/air-raid siren!!
This short-sighted way of operating winds people up no end and denies the aircraft gingers the opportunity to fix and faults being carried. They are denied the time to fix them before they are turned round. Yes 10hrs might seem a long ground time but thats only 4hrs fix time!!
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Of course the whole AT schedule runs around movers!
No they are not. I don't think there are any Movers sitting that far up the tree anywhere. Lay responsibility somewhere close to where it lies rather than slagging a Trade! Do you really think a single Trade holds responsibility here?