German Draft Defence Cuts
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German Draft Defence Cuts
Germany drafts 9 bln euro defence savings plan
BERLIN, July 7 (Reuters) - German defence ministry experts have drawn up a list of potential savings in weapons and equipment worth more than 9.3 billion euros in the long-term.
The defence ministry said the savings proposals, details of which emerged in German media on Wednesday, were merely the basis for ongoing discussions and not final. Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg has been unusually vocal with his calls for budget consolidation in Germay, saying the military budgets would not be immune to cuts even though some of his predecessors had resisted cutbacks.
"The defence minister reserves the right to change or supplement these drafts," the ministry said in a statement after the reports surfaced.
German daily Bild said the number of planned A400M military transport aircraft would be reduced and 15 Transall transport planes taken out of service immediately. Defence industry officials told Reuters that Germany has been in negotiations to cut its order for 60 aircraft by seven plans to 53. The planes cost about 100 million euros each and Germany could save approximately 750 million euros, they said.....
Among the other proposals put forward, Germany would buy only 80 NH-90 helicopters instead of the planned 122 and halve the number of new Tiger attack helicopters to 40.
Bild and business daily Handelsblatt said they also included buying 37 fewer Eurofighter combat jets than previously planned. Moreover, the plan recommended Guttenberg reduce the number of Tornados in the air force to 85 from 185 as soon as possible.
Guttenberg, the most popular minister in Merkel's cabinet, has emerged as a leading candidate for higher office in the last year thanks to his crusades in defence of taxpayers. The reports follows discussions about reducing the size of Germany's armed forces as part of a drive to consolidate the federal budget by 80 billion euros over the next four years.
Robert Hochbaum, a member of the Bundestag lower house of parliament's defence policy committee for Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU), said future cuts to military spending were likely to reach billions of euros. "We can't make cuts to social welfare budgets and then ignore defence," he said. "There will be drastic cuts." Nevertheless, care had to be taken to ensure that the measures did not endanger the armed forces' ability to carry out its duties at home and abroad, Hochbaum added.
The 23-page document advised placing no orders for EADS's Talarion UAV and instead ordering Saateg AA Male drones.
The German navy should take eight frigates, 10 speedboats and 21 Sea King helicopters out of service in the medium to longer-term and order only three instead of four new class 125 frigates, the savings plan recommended.
The U.S.-European MEADS missile development program would not be affected, it added.
BERLIN, July 7 (Reuters) - German defence ministry experts have drawn up a list of potential savings in weapons and equipment worth more than 9.3 billion euros in the long-term.
The defence ministry said the savings proposals, details of which emerged in German media on Wednesday, were merely the basis for ongoing discussions and not final. Defence Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg has been unusually vocal with his calls for budget consolidation in Germay, saying the military budgets would not be immune to cuts even though some of his predecessors had resisted cutbacks.
"The defence minister reserves the right to change or supplement these drafts," the ministry said in a statement after the reports surfaced.
German daily Bild said the number of planned A400M military transport aircraft would be reduced and 15 Transall transport planes taken out of service immediately. Defence industry officials told Reuters that Germany has been in negotiations to cut its order for 60 aircraft by seven plans to 53. The planes cost about 100 million euros each and Germany could save approximately 750 million euros, they said.....
Among the other proposals put forward, Germany would buy only 80 NH-90 helicopters instead of the planned 122 and halve the number of new Tiger attack helicopters to 40.
Bild and business daily Handelsblatt said they also included buying 37 fewer Eurofighter combat jets than previously planned. Moreover, the plan recommended Guttenberg reduce the number of Tornados in the air force to 85 from 185 as soon as possible.
Guttenberg, the most popular minister in Merkel's cabinet, has emerged as a leading candidate for higher office in the last year thanks to his crusades in defence of taxpayers. The reports follows discussions about reducing the size of Germany's armed forces as part of a drive to consolidate the federal budget by 80 billion euros over the next four years.
Robert Hochbaum, a member of the Bundestag lower house of parliament's defence policy committee for Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU), said future cuts to military spending were likely to reach billions of euros. "We can't make cuts to social welfare budgets and then ignore defence," he said. "There will be drastic cuts." Nevertheless, care had to be taken to ensure that the measures did not endanger the armed forces' ability to carry out its duties at home and abroad, Hochbaum added.
The 23-page document advised placing no orders for EADS's Talarion UAV and instead ordering Saateg AA Male drones.
The German navy should take eight frigates, 10 speedboats and 21 Sea King helicopters out of service in the medium to longer-term and order only three instead of four new class 125 frigates, the savings plan recommended.
The U.S.-European MEADS missile development program would not be affected, it added.
Germany's final decisions are to be expected by fall. They'd need to adopt to new worldwide and night operations while needing to seriously reduce legacy weapon programs from the cold war days and close plenty of smaller bases. Might even suspend the military duty for everybody male.
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Dangerous bait, mgd!
Not sure what you are trying to suggest? Remember, Poland is a NATO partner and has been for the last 20 years. Incidentally, so are all Germany's neighbours except Switzerland and Austria.
In fact the decision is nothing but logical. If you're surrounded by friends and partners, you don't need the same sort of army as when the enemy is just across the border. That's what European integration is all about, this is an at least partial achievement of Germany's highest polititcal goal of those last 60 years
. That's indeed something other European nations might find reassuring - they'll be able to follow Germany's example now.
In fact the decision is nothing but logical. If you're surrounded by friends and partners, you don't need the same sort of army as when the enemy is just across the border. That's what European integration is all about, this is an at least partial achievement of Germany's highest polititcal goal of those last 60 years
. That's indeed something other European nations might find reassuring - they'll be able to follow Germany's example now.
Bild and business daily Handelsblatt said they also included buying 37 fewer Eurofighter combat jets than previously planned. Moreover, the plan recommended Guttenberg reduce the number of Tornados in the air force to 85 from 185 as soon as possible.
Which really do the job - but which desperately need a tactical data link system if they are to realise their full potential!
Nicht wahr, Juergen?
The industry might get big chunks of the former military maintenance cake. That will heel their wounds.
I'd say we'd need fleets of modern helos more urgent than triple digits of air superiority fighters. (Sounds familiar?
) Guttenberg might be willing to even buy stuff elsewhere if he gets too stiff opposition from the domestic industry.
I'd say we'd need fleets of modern helos more urgent than triple digits of air superiority fighters. (Sounds familiar?
) Guttenberg might be willing to even buy stuff elsewhere if he gets too stiff opposition from the domestic industry.
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Strong agreement!
Good comment, rengineer, which people who criticise the size of Germany's participation in operations outside Europe should consider very seriously. Germany's part in the original NATO set-up was considerable (understandably), but the "mission creep" since re-unification has caused much justified heart-searching.
The present dire financial situation calls for reductions all round in all European countries, with serious potential side-effects on military programmes (and employment, of course). The claimed savings from cancellations of orders may run into expensive compensation costs originally written into programmes like Tornado, Typhoon/Eurofighter and the A400M, to tie partners with second thoughts into those programmes very firmly.
Not to mention the strong possibility that cuts now may well very seriously reduce military effectiveness all across Europe, "NATO" or not.
The next few months are going to be "very interesting times".
The present dire financial situation calls for reductions all round in all European countries, with serious potential side-effects on military programmes (and employment, of course). The claimed savings from cancellations of orders may run into expensive compensation costs originally written into programmes like Tornado, Typhoon/Eurofighter and the A400M, to tie partners with second thoughts into those programmes very firmly.
Not to mention the strong possibility that cuts now may well very seriously reduce military effectiveness all across Europe, "NATO" or not.
The next few months are going to be "very interesting times".
Last edited by Jig Peter; 8th Jul 2010 at 14:26. Reason: typo correction
One big problem for Germany is their forces outdated organizational structure. They cannot deploy enough troops for foreign operations at any given time. Instead they spend their money (and that is quite a bit) on educating unwanted domestic conscripts and on maintaining legacy structures. Lots of overhead staff but not enough warfighters. And they keep some huge bureaucracy for everything slowing change and making any unefficient.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Maybe they will be more reliant on their NATO partners, such as UK, to take some of the weight.
Ah, aren't UK looking to get NATO partners to stake some of the weight?
Ah, aren't UK looking to get NATO partners to stake some of the weight?
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 8th Jul 2010 at 16:06.
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A good time to move all of our personel back to Blighty from Germany then. If we can find the money to do it. The move to Innsworth went a bit quiet. Wonder if Northern Rock will sponser it?
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For Heaven's sake,
MGD's remark was sardonic, perhaps witty, perhaps not depending about how sensitive or PC you want to be.
This is a RUMOUR network, it is allowable. All discussions are not mandated to be serious - inevitably some are and some not.
It depends upon how we feel, what kind of day we've had and so on.
How about a bit of lattitude?
MGD's remark was sardonic, perhaps witty, perhaps not depending about how sensitive or PC you want to be.
This is a RUMOUR network, it is allowable. All discussions are not mandated to be serious - inevitably some are and some not.
It depends upon how we feel, what kind of day we've had and so on.
How about a bit of lattitude?
For Heaven's sake,
MGD's remark was sardonic, perhaps witty, perhaps not depending about how sensitive or PC you want to be.
MGD's remark was sardonic, perhaps witty, perhaps not depending about how sensitive or PC you want to be.
Interested to see what the SAATEG is they are talking about - what we do know is that EADS TALERION is looking a bit dodgy then!
SAATEG - System fuer die Abbildende Aufklaerung in der Tiefe des Einsatz Gebietes or in English "System for the portraying clarification in the depth of the use of zone" or "persistent ISTAR/ISR"
SAATEG is not a UAS/RPAS but a requirement and I know that IAI's HERON TP and also General Atomics MQ-9 have been in the running for the Germans.
Anyone in the know which type they have selected??
The B Word
SAATEG - System fuer die Abbildende Aufklaerung in der Tiefe des Einsatz Gebietes or in English "System for the portraying clarification in the depth of the use of zone" or "persistent ISTAR/ISR"
SAATEG is not a UAS/RPAS but a requirement and I know that IAI's HERON TP and also General Atomics MQ-9 have been in the running for the Germans.
Anyone in the know which type they have selected??
The B Word
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Some how me thinks we are in for a shock with our own SDR
Stand-by for some shocking cuts...........
Stand-by for some shocking cuts...........
Mind you, the place is alive with rumours and buzzes at the moment.... ranging from get rid of Puma to get rid of JHC altogether... even heard a buzz that the RN were gonna lose Ocean, Bulwark and Albion. At the moment these are all rumours and we will have to wait until October to be told the news. I do fear that there will be many people looking for work but I hope not.
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Couldn't agree more....heard a rumour today at work to expect around 15 % redundancies... in each service.
Mind you, the place is alive with rumours and buzzes at the moment.... ranging from get rid of Puma to get rid of JHC altogether... even heard a buzz that the RN were gonna lose Ocean, Bulwark and Albion. At the moment these are all rumours and we will have to wait until October to be told the news. I do fear that there will be many people looking for work but I hope not.
Mind you, the place is alive with rumours and buzzes at the moment.... ranging from get rid of Puma to get rid of JHC altogether... even heard a buzz that the RN were gonna lose Ocean, Bulwark and Albion. At the moment these are all rumours and we will have to wait until October to be told the news. I do fear that there will be many people looking for work but I hope not.
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I am so glad I made the decision to leave the German Navy in year 2000. Soldiers not having ammo for trainings, air bases closing just for saving money instead of looking at their purposes, ordering materials that have not been tested long enough (NH-90, Mungo ESK, and so on) and not being able to protect their own troops I think it would not be the fun we had in my active time. Today I would not recommend anyone to join the German military.
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That's a whole lotta different thing, LJ. Traveling a lot I do not have all those various coins in my pockets anymore. Ok, all was getting more expensive since the transition. But due to job changes I could raise my income also 
