Aussie MRH-90
The ARH Tiger was more than ready and should have gone to support ADF soldiers. You will hear all kinds of bleating and excuses as to "sustainability", training gaps etc 
My response is "grow a set of balls!" The hierarchy were unwilling to take the risk for their careers and their mindset of "how many people" was way too many!
The French took theirs (a less capable version) to Afghanistan, Libya and Mali, the Australian Army took theirs to Shoalwater bay.
The drivers, maintainers and ops support were/are more than capable. The commanders were more worried about their pay checks for Fifi and Crispin's private school fees and getting their next promotion or a job with the manufacturer or an affiliate. 
The Tiger is an incredible capable aircraft. It is robust, reliable and somewhat worrying for the bad guys. It is such a shame that the risk to Australian soldiers was increased as a result of them not having the required level of organic aviation support in theatre.
My response is "grow a set of balls!" The hierarchy were unwilling to take the risk for their careers and their mindset of "how many people" was way too many! The French took theirs (a less capable version) to Afghanistan, Libya and Mali, the Australian Army took theirs to Shoalwater bay.
The drivers, maintainers and ops support were/are more than capable. The commanders were more worried about their pay checks for Fifi and Crispin's private school fees and getting their next promotion or a job with the manufacturer or an affiliate. The Tiger is an incredible capable aircraft. It is robust, reliable and somewhat worrying for the bad guys. It is such a shame that the risk to Australian soldiers was increased as a result of them not having the required level of organic aviation support in theatre.
Last edited by Doors Off; 29th Jun 2014 at 07:29.
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For a change of pace - Well for the 'Romeo' innit - go here:
Commodore checks out navy?s new helicopters | South Coast Register
Commodore checks out navy?s new helicopters | South Coast Register
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ANAO Audit Report on MRH90 Project
The whole of the subject document downloadable via this link is an indictment of military hardware capabilities and acquisition planning in Canberra: Multi-Role Helicopter Program
It seems the Dutch have just opted out of taking the remainder of their order for this platform and intend suing the manufacturer.
Simply no justification for Australia replacing utility helicopters with a medium lift platform at unit cost around $65million and operating cost north of $31K per flying hour.
The further the absurd ADF Helicopter Strategic Master Plan progresses, the more options for cost-effective military helo operations become diminished. Go see some of my arguments this thread over the past year.
Australia already ranks about 12th in the world for dollars spent on defence and ADF operating costs will soar exponentially.
It seems to me that all 3 Australia military arms will of necessity have to be rationalized in the near term to keep defence expenditure within economic affordability considering overall national imperatives.
It seems the Dutch have just opted out of taking the remainder of their order for this platform and intend suing the manufacturer.
Simply no justification for Australia replacing utility helicopters with a medium lift platform at unit cost around $65million and operating cost north of $31K per flying hour.
The further the absurd ADF Helicopter Strategic Master Plan progresses, the more options for cost-effective military helo operations become diminished. Go see some of my arguments this thread over the past year.
Australia already ranks about 12th in the world for dollars spent on defence and ADF operating costs will soar exponentially.
It seems to me that all 3 Australia military arms will of necessity have to be rationalized in the near term to keep defence expenditure within economic affordability considering overall national imperatives.
Thread Starter
The Swedes got so frustrated with their NH90 order that they bought 15 MH-60M's to cover their combat needs in A/Stan...
It is interesting to read how the muppets in charge of this program created a deceitful model [leaving out simulators and other support stuff] in the first MRH90 order knowing that they would fudge them through later. We the taxpayers and the ADF would be hundreds of millions better off with the Sikorsky proposals [and on-time!]. Also why didn't Defence ask about the MH-60S Knighthawk for Navy???
It is interesting to read how the muppets in charge of this program created a deceitful model [leaving out simulators and other support stuff] in the first MRH90 order knowing that they would fudge them through later. We the taxpayers and the ADF would be hundreds of millions better off with the Sikorsky proposals [and on-time!]. Also why didn't Defence ask about the MH-60S Knighthawk for Navy???
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It's interesting reading the C-130 thread and a couple of examples where an aircraft has gone U/S and luckily for the crew they have US C-130 also on the airfield so have popped over and managed to get the part required and got the aircraft going again.
Now we, as in Aus, work almost 100% with the US or they are likely to be at least close by so why do we go for 2 Euro helicopters with a completely separate supply chain to our neck of the woods when even in Aus we operate with the US.
No helo could be that much better that the other factors outweigh the benefits of using what the US use.
And jobs in Aus does not count !!!
Now we, as in Aus, work almost 100% with the US or they are likely to be at least close by so why do we go for 2 Euro helicopters with a completely separate supply chain to our neck of the woods when even in Aus we operate with the US.
No helo could be that much better that the other factors outweigh the benefits of using what the US use.
And jobs in Aus does not count !!!
Thread Starter
The jobs bit is a con as well. Total number employed was 100 or so. Nothing in the scheme of things but a political statement .
The USA is our ally and for combat and combat support machines etc we are best served with using the same gear for the reasons stated .
The USA is our ally and for combat and combat support machines etc we are best served with using the same gear for the reasons stated .
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I think it was 200 jobs but hell, that's peanuts.
TBM
And of course one of the Helo's, ammo is another important variable.
The other "skeleton in the closet" is the fact that what if the country / EU refuse to issue and export permit
for said ammo, parts etc on the basis they disagree with the XYZ war we are fighting ?
Shades of Vietnam all over again in regards to the RAAF Aircraft ?
Then where will we be ?
At least being almost at the top of the tree in terms of what the US will ship us (after Israel)
means we are almost certain to get what we ask for, F-22 excluded.
TBM
And of course one of the Helo's, ammo is another important variable.
The other "skeleton in the closet" is the fact that what if the country / EU refuse to issue and export permit
for said ammo, parts etc on the basis they disagree with the XYZ war we are fighting ?
Shades of Vietnam all over again in regards to the RAAF Aircraft ?
Then where will we be ?
At least being almost at the top of the tree in terms of what the US will ship us (after Israel)
means we are almost certain to get what we ask for, F-22 excluded.
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Hi 500N,
These figures from the Year 2013-14 Federal Budget:
ADF cost per flying hour 2013-2014
Aircraft / Cost per aircraft / Cost per flight hour
Classic Hornet / $2.22M / $13,620
Super Hornet / $5.12M / $26,739
C-17 / $9.66M / $11,153
C-130J / $7.9M / $12,925
E-7A / $27.16M / $54,333
MRH-90 / ? / $30250 (1)
ARH Tiger / ? / $33548 (2)
The 'Cost per aircraft' figure is for operation of one aircraft per annum.
According to Page 61 of the ANAO Audit Report, unit cost of one MRH90 is a scandalous $65million!
The full picture re helicopter operating costs, including the now forfeited Iroquois at about $5K per flying hour, would reinforce what I have been trying to convey that the ADF Helicopter Strategic Master Plan is an absolute disaster.
The costs of optimizing Kiowa, Iroquois, Blackhawk, Sea King, Seahawk and keeping Seasprite, but fully refurbished and restored to original manufacture configuration (the Kiwis are laughing), would have been very cost-effective compared with acquisition and operating costs for Tiger, MRH90, MH-60R and who knows what next?
Multiple proven and essential capabilities for near region operations have been shed without rigorous objective analysis before embarking on the absurd HSMP, which in my guesstimate has hitherto needlessly squandered around $10billion.
These figures from the Year 2013-14 Federal Budget:
ADF cost per flying hour 2013-2014
Aircraft / Cost per aircraft / Cost per flight hour
Classic Hornet / $2.22M / $13,620
Super Hornet / $5.12M / $26,739
C-17 / $9.66M / $11,153
C-130J / $7.9M / $12,925
E-7A / $27.16M / $54,333
MRH-90 / ? / $30250 (1)
ARH Tiger / ? / $33548 (2)
The 'Cost per aircraft' figure is for operation of one aircraft per annum.
According to Page 61 of the ANAO Audit Report, unit cost of one MRH90 is a scandalous $65million!
The full picture re helicopter operating costs, including the now forfeited Iroquois at about $5K per flying hour, would reinforce what I have been trying to convey that the ADF Helicopter Strategic Master Plan is an absolute disaster.
The costs of optimizing Kiowa, Iroquois, Blackhawk, Sea King, Seahawk and keeping Seasprite, but fully refurbished and restored to original manufacture configuration (the Kiwis are laughing), would have been very cost-effective compared with acquisition and operating costs for Tiger, MRH90, MH-60R and who knows what next?
Multiple proven and essential capabilities for near region operations have been shed without rigorous objective analysis before embarking on the absurd HSMP, which in my guesstimate has hitherto needlessly squandered around $10billion.
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 30th Jun 2014 at 03:40.
Thread Starter
MRH90 piece of shi-ite
The ADF bought this piece of crap in part because it would be corrosion resistant. Well the Dutch have found the naval, fully marinised version NFH90 wanting. See below:
Dutch defence ministerJeanine Hennis-Plasschaert has sent a letter to the nation’s parliament regarding a decision to postpone acceptance of the country’s final seven NH Industries (NHI) NH90s in the NFH naval variant, until a suitable solution for corrosion problems found on its earlier examples and financial compensation for additional costs have been agreed.
The problems were first noted when two helicopters returned from missions in a maritime environment in 2013 and underwent regular inspection. One was operating an anti-piracy mission off the coast of Somalia, while the other had been on patrol in the Caribbean Sea on board a Royal Netherlands Navy frigate. Both assignments lasted around five to six months.
The helicopters were rinsed after each flight in an operational state, with rotor blades and tail unfolded. However, in some sea state conditions the rotor blades and tail had to be folded within 20min, with washing performed in this configuration.
Tasked by the defence ministry, the Dutch National Aerospace Laboratory in May reported its findings from an investigation into 92 corrosion occurrences.The laboratory concluded the design of the helicopter made it possible for water to collect without the possibility for draining, that the NFH had not been built as designed and that protective coatings and insulation intended to prevent galvanic corrosion had been improperly used.
Anno Gravemaker
Its findings wereshared with the NATO Helicopter Management Agency (NAHEMA), which asked NHI to recommend a corrosion prevention programme to be adopted by the Royal Netherlands Air Force. At a meeting of the steering committee of NH90 partner nations in April, France indicated it had also experienced the same type of corrosion problems.
NHI says it has developed technical solutions for around 60% of the problems identified following the prolonged use of the embarked NFH, and that these are being incorporated in helicopters currently under construction. The consortium says it has told NAHEMA it expects to be able to provide a roadmap with the solution for all problems in September 2014.
While it is still waiting for a final agreement, the RNAF will continue to use the NH90 in support of NATO-led anti-piracy missions off the coast of Africa. However, the type is not expected to be used in the Caribbean again before 2017.
The problems were first noted when two helicopters returned from missions in a maritime environment in 2013 and underwent regular inspection. One was operating an anti-piracy mission off the coast of Somalia, while the other had been on patrol in the Caribbean Sea on board a Royal Netherlands Navy frigate. Both assignments lasted around five to six months.
The helicopters were rinsed after each flight in an operational state, with rotor blades and tail unfolded. However, in some sea state conditions the rotor blades and tail had to be folded within 20min, with washing performed in this configuration.
Tasked by the defence ministry, the Dutch National Aerospace Laboratory in May reported its findings from an investigation into 92 corrosion occurrences.The laboratory concluded the design of the helicopter made it possible for water to collect without the possibility for draining, that the NFH had not been built as designed and that protective coatings and insulation intended to prevent galvanic corrosion had been improperly used.
Anno Gravemaker
Its findings wereshared with the NATO Helicopter Management Agency (NAHEMA), which asked NHI to recommend a corrosion prevention programme to be adopted by the Royal Netherlands Air Force. At a meeting of the steering committee of NH90 partner nations in April, France indicated it had also experienced the same type of corrosion problems.
NHI says it has developed technical solutions for around 60% of the problems identified following the prolonged use of the embarked NFH, and that these are being incorporated in helicopters currently under construction. The consortium says it has told NAHEMA it expects to be able to provide a roadmap with the solution for all problems in September 2014.
While it is still waiting for a final agreement, the RNAF will continue to use the NH90 in support of NATO-led anti-piracy missions off the coast of Africa. However, the type is not expected to be used in the Caribbean again before 2017.
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TBM or others
Sounds like someone said one thing to get the order !
How come the US used a heap of other helos, variants of Blackhawks
in a Maritime environment but they aren't suitable for what we do ?
Surely they have their helos protected ?
Sounds like someone said one thing to get the order !
How come the US used a heap of other helos, variants of Blackhawks
in a Maritime environment but they aren't suitable for what we do ?
Surely they have their helos protected ?
Bushranger: To put it all in perspective, the latest Cost of the standard F35: £126million each airframe...WITHOUT its engine, which is either £16 million for the stock F35 or £31 million for the STVOL version.
Yes, they would, IF your maintenance crew have a sound corrosion control program.
(And let's not mention the slip rings ... )
(And let's not mention the slip rings ... )
Thread Starter
Bit different from the ADF MRH90 and Tiger programs:
Boeing has delivered its 15th and final CH-47F Chinook transport helicopter to the Royal Canadian Air Force.
“This was a complex aircraft programme, yet the partnership and collaboration between Boeing, the Canadian customer and our industry partners enabled us to deliver all 15 aircraft on or ahead of schedule,” says Steve Parker, Boeing vice-president cargo helicopters and H-47 programme manager. The last delivery was marked during a 30 June ceremony held at the manufacturer’s Ridley Township site in Philadelphia.
“This was a complex aircraft programme, yet the partnership and collaboration between Boeing, the Canadian customer and our industry partners enabled us to deliver all 15 aircraft on or ahead of schedule,” says Steve Parker, Boeing vice-president cargo helicopters and H-47 programme manager. The last delivery was marked during a 30 June ceremony held at the manufacturer’s Ridley Township site in Philadelphia.
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The decision not to go with the M model Blackhawk was an absolute howler...
Why do politicians even bother to ask for opinions? 
In May 2003, the Department of Defence (Defence) released a Request for Proposal (RFP) for AIR 9000 Phase 2 to three prospective suppliers. In response to the RFP, AgustaWestland offered the EH101 Merlin, Australian Aerospace Limited offered the NH90 (to be developed for Australia as the MRH90) and Sikorsky Aircraft Australia Limited offered the S‐70M Black Hawk.6 Following evaluation of the bids, the AgustaWestland EH101 offer was set aside and Defence pursued an Offer Development and Refinement Process (ODRP) for a combined Phases 2 and 4 with the two remaining bidders. This led to a Defence recommendation to the Minister for Defence in June 2004 that the S‐70M Black Hawk be selected as the preferred aircraft for Phases 2 and 4.
7.
In accordance with direction provided by the Minister for Defence and government, Defence developed alternate draft submissions, initially to ask ministers to choose between the two aircraft options—the MRH90 and S‐70M Black Hawk—and later recommending acquisition of the MRH90 for Phase 2 only. In August 2004, government formally approved the acquisition of 12 MRH90 aircraft for Phase 2 on the basis that strategic and other government considerations outweighed the cost advantage of the Sikorsky proposal.
7.
In accordance with direction provided by the Minister for Defence and government, Defence developed alternate draft submissions, initially to ask ministers to choose between the two aircraft options—the MRH90 and S‐70M Black Hawk—and later recommending acquisition of the MRH90 for Phase 2 only. In August 2004, government formally approved the acquisition of 12 MRH90 aircraft for Phase 2 on the basis that strategic and other government considerations outweighed the cost advantage of the Sikorsky proposal.
Thread Starter
Talking to one who knows this past week and he tells me that Army is beside itself now that operating costs including inflated Frog parts pricing [sole source - no competition] has found there way into the books. The new gravel truck costs more than twice per flight hour than the Blackhawk its replacing. Other news is that the Blackhawk costs have blown out due to the uniqueness of our one off models..
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If we hadn't purchased the MRH then the likelihood is that whatever we did purchase would be in operation and therefore the old Blackhawks would not be being used " beyond their life of type...".
