So it wasn't the "Hoorays" in Spitfires then ??
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So it wasn't the "Hoorays" in Spitfires then ??
The Untold Battle of Britain
Tuesday 29 June
9:00pm - 10:00pm
Channel 4
What we have here is a stirring story about Battle of Britain derring-do, retold using dramatised sequences that sadly can't hope to do it justice. The RAF's 303 squadron was formed in 1940 from exiled Polish airmen who'd already fought in dated aircraft to defend their own country from the Luftwaffe. Equipped with Hurricanes, they fared better: the voiceover claims that defending Britain in the summer of 1940, the pilots of 303 shot down twice as many Germans as the leading British unit, and with a third of the losses. As a slice of history, it's fascinating, complete with a terrible final betrayal of the men's bravery that must be a lasting grievance.
Tuesday 29 June
9:00pm - 10:00pm
Channel 4
What we have here is a stirring story about Battle of Britain derring-do, retold using dramatised sequences that sadly can't hope to do it justice. The RAF's 303 squadron was formed in 1940 from exiled Polish airmen who'd already fought in dated aircraft to defend their own country from the Luftwaffe. Equipped with Hurricanes, they fared better: the voiceover claims that defending Britain in the summer of 1940, the pilots of 303 shot down twice as many Germans as the leading British unit, and with a third of the losses. As a slice of history, it's fascinating, complete with a terrible final betrayal of the men's bravery that must be a lasting grievance.
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Have you got a time machine or something? If it's on TV tonight how do you know the content? Not that there is any dispute about the Polish contribution; lets hope some Pole bashers watch the prog and appreciate the shared history and debt both nations owe to each other.
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Thanks for the heads-up, rogerk. Sky+HD is set.
Not quite sure of what point you are trying to make with your thread title, though. Most people with an interest in the battle know that there were more Hurricanes than Spitfires and that the RAF employed a good proportion of SNCO pilots and other aircrew.
The courage and tenacity of the Poles is well documented (and immortalised by the Polish War Memorial outside RAF Northolt, from where 303 Sqn flew). Perhaps their score was much higher because they were already combat-hardened when they arrived in the UK and that they wanted to exact bloody revenge on Jerry for invading their homeland, whereas it was sufficient for the wider RAF to merely deter the Hun from his planned invasion in order to fulfill their mission.
Not quite sure of what point you are trying to make with your thread title, though. Most people with an interest in the battle know that there were more Hurricanes than Spitfires and that the RAF employed a good proportion of SNCO pilots and other aircrew.
The courage and tenacity of the Poles is well documented (and immortalised by the Polish War Memorial outside RAF Northolt, from where 303 Sqn flew). Perhaps their score was much higher because they were already combat-hardened when they arrived in the UK and that they wanted to exact bloody revenge on Jerry for invading their homeland, whereas it was sufficient for the wider RAF to merely deter the Hun from his planned invasion in order to fulfill their mission.
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As one who had kin serving at this time I think the difference was the RAF/RCAF were about shooting down aircraft, the Poles and others with their homelands ocupied were about killing Germans, who can blame them?
Last edited by clunckdriver; 29th Jun 2010 at 16:13.
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Very well made program. We allies should hold our heads in shame about how they were treated after the war - some thanks for their efforts 
Incidentally, anyone notice how many Poles are playing football for Germany right now...? No wonder we lost.
Incidentally, anyone notice how many Poles are playing football for Germany right now...? No wonder we lost.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Some good film there, I wonder where the more modern shots came from. Unused footage from "Battle of Britain" 1970? Shame though that the produced didn't know the difference between a Hurricane and a Spitfire.
Another misconception about the Battle of Britain is that only pilots took part in the action. Obviously as the predominant types involved were single seat fighters, pilots were in the majority, but a number of Blenheim Squadrons (eight I think) took part, and their aircrews were all awarded the Battle of Britain clasp. I was once the proud owner of a Battle of Britain group of medals awarded to a Blenheim air gunner, whose crew was credited with one kill in the Battle, an Me109 - no mean feat for a Blenheim. As an ex nav I also have to point out that Blenheim observers also received the clasp, so later on there would have been Battle of Britain navs - I wonder if any survive!
On the subject of nationalities, although the Irish government remained neutral in WW2, many brave Irishmen from South of the border came to fight, and ten Irish pilots flew in the Battle of Britain, including Wg Cdr "Paddy" Finucane, DSO, DFC **.
On the subject of nationalities, although the Irish government remained neutral in WW2, many brave Irishmen from South of the border came to fight, and ten Irish pilots flew in the Battle of Britain, including Wg Cdr "Paddy" Finucane, DSO, DFC **.
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 29th Jun 2010 at 21:51.
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Really good show a lot I knew but a lot I learned as well .
A real shame that we turned our back on the poles at the end off the war . How ironic one off the reasons we went to war to free the country we ended up doing a "gentalmans" agreement with Stalin to give him it.
Is there maybe a comparisment between them and the American tuskeege airmen ??? That the drilled and weeded out the poorer students that all that was left was the cream and that's why they got such a good kill ratio . Plus with there previous war experiance !
A real shame that we turned our back on the poles at the end off the war . How ironic one off the reasons we went to war to free the country we ended up doing a "gentalmans" agreement with Stalin to give him it.
Is there maybe a comparisment between them and the American tuskeege airmen ??? That the drilled and weeded out the poorer students that all that was left was the cream and that's why they got such a good kill ratio . Plus with there previous war experiance !
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I hope this will get air time in Canada, Johny Kent, the RAF co comander of the squadron {or Kentowski} as he became known, was of course one of the many Canadians serving in the RAF, many over here have not heard of him.Im told even family would call him "Kentowski" when trying to get his attention on some point or other in later years, we owe them so much.
Flt Lt Kent was referred to as 'Captain' Kent in the programme - shame the researchers can't get RAF ranks correct, especially as 303 Sqn's history's been so well chronicled.
Mind you, several historical TV programmes have introduced a new officer's RAF rank, the Flight Officer; and how many times do we see Air Marshals blessed with an extra 'l'?
Mind you, several historical TV programmes have introduced a new officer's RAF rank, the Flight Officer; and how many times do we see Air Marshals blessed with an extra 'l'?
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Poles in WW2
Over 250,000 Poles served in the Free Polish forces during WW2. Their units included:
Air Force
8 x Fighter Sqns (302; 303; 306; 308; 315; 316; 317 and 307 NF)
4 x Bomber Sqns (300; 301; 304 and 305)
2 x Fighter Recce (309 and 318)
1 x Artillery Observation (663)
The Polish Fighting Team fought in North Africa.
Special Duties: ( C Flt of 138 Sqn; 1586 Flt)
Training Unit: 18OTU.
Navy:
2 x Cruisers (ORP Dragon; ORP Conrad)
11 x Destroyers
6 x Submarines
7 x Mine layers
Army:
2 x Infantry Divisions: Polish Infantry (Carpathian Brigade) was in Tobruk and Polish Troops finally captured Monte Cassino.
1 x Armoured Division: This unit was the cork in the bottle of the Falais Pocket in Normandy (battle of "Mt Ormel" or "The Mace")
1 x Parachute Brigade: Was the last unit to jump into the Arnhem operation.
A fine memorial to a Polish Wellington crew of 18 OTU stands near the summit of Buckden Pike in the Yorkshire Dales. The aircraft was lost in a training accident - the only survivor was the rear gunner who followed the tracks of a fox in the snow to reach a farm house and safety despite having severe injuries. Details can be found through Google.
I like the Poles - I too hope that the current population of Britain comes to appreciate them.
Air Force
8 x Fighter Sqns (302; 303; 306; 308; 315; 316; 317 and 307 NF)
4 x Bomber Sqns (300; 301; 304 and 305)
2 x Fighter Recce (309 and 318)
1 x Artillery Observation (663)
The Polish Fighting Team fought in North Africa.
Special Duties: ( C Flt of 138 Sqn; 1586 Flt)
Training Unit: 18OTU.
Navy:
2 x Cruisers (ORP Dragon; ORP Conrad)
11 x Destroyers
6 x Submarines
7 x Mine layers
Army:
2 x Infantry Divisions: Polish Infantry (Carpathian Brigade) was in Tobruk and Polish Troops finally captured Monte Cassino.
1 x Armoured Division: This unit was the cork in the bottle of the Falais Pocket in Normandy (battle of "Mt Ormel" or "The Mace")
1 x Parachute Brigade: Was the last unit to jump into the Arnhem operation.
A fine memorial to a Polish Wellington crew of 18 OTU stands near the summit of Buckden Pike in the Yorkshire Dales. The aircraft was lost in a training accident - the only survivor was the rear gunner who followed the tracks of a fox in the snow to reach a farm house and safety despite having severe injuries. Details can be found through Google.
I like the Poles - I too hope that the current population of Britain comes to appreciate them.
We had flight officers when I was serving in the 60's and 70's. Some of them were rather nice
Tankertrashnav - Ah, yes. The 'fairer' flight officers. My oversight.
There's a very large section covering his service with the Poles in the late Michael Bentine's autobiography 'The Long Banana skin'. He served as Intelligence Officer on a bomber squadron for a while.
There's a lovely story about how some downed aircrew escaped back to England, helped by a long line of grateful ladies right across Europe. And where else could you read of a farmer being blown up by a sea mine in Yorkshire.....
Thanks gentlemen, we owe you!
There's a lovely story about how some downed aircrew escaped back to England, helped by a long line of grateful ladies right across Europe. And where else could you read of a farmer being blown up by a sea mine in Yorkshire.....
Thanks gentlemen, we owe you!
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One of our A/c is missing
As this has some connections with the foregone I am curious as to whether the following is already known -
Czech traitor delivers Hurricane to Luftwaffe
Amid the Poles and Czech pilots escaping from Europe to join the RAF was a Czech pilot named Precui. While attached to 55 OCU Sqn RAF he - in company with a Polish pilot - each in Hurricanes flew out to sea off Sunderland where some time later the Czech Hurricane disappeared. The Pole reporting it as last seen diving towards the sea.
Apparantly Precui was a Czech traitor and had delivered the Hurricane
to the Lufwaffe via a field in Belgium - betraying to the Gestapo a couple who had befriended him. In 1947 he was tried and executed.
So far as aware this story has never been released by any British Govt -
kept secret and seems only to have come to light when a photo of a Hurricane surrounded by German pilots was discovered in latter years
by an a/c enthusiast - who took it upon himself to investigate.
The sqn markings on the Hurricane read A PA although its not clear if
the photo was that of the actual a/c involved.
...
Czech traitor delivers Hurricane to Luftwaffe
Amid the Poles and Czech pilots escaping from Europe to join the RAF was a Czech pilot named Precui. While attached to 55 OCU Sqn RAF he - in company with a Polish pilot - each in Hurricanes flew out to sea off Sunderland where some time later the Czech Hurricane disappeared. The Pole reporting it as last seen diving towards the sea.
Apparantly Precui was a Czech traitor and had delivered the Hurricane
to the Lufwaffe via a field in Belgium - betraying to the Gestapo a couple who had befriended him. In 1947 he was tried and executed.
So far as aware this story has never been released by any British Govt -
kept secret and seems only to have come to light when a photo of a Hurricane surrounded by German pilots was discovered in latter years
by an a/c enthusiast - who took it upon himself to investigate.
The sqn markings on the Hurricane read A PA although its not clear if
the photo was that of the actual a/c involved.
...
Pasir,
It is an interesting story.
BBC NEWS | UK | Stolen Hurricane flies into history books
Stolen Hurricane flies into history books - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
TJ
It is an interesting story.
BBC NEWS | UK | Stolen Hurricane flies into history books
Stolen Hurricane flies into history books - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
TJ
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According to Kenneth G Wynn in his book "A Clasp for the Few", there were some 2945 men qualified to wear the clasp, of whom 2388 came from the UK, the remaining 557 coming from the Commonwealth, Ireland.Poland, France, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, the US and Palestine. Of the contingents from overseas, New Zealand had 129 men officially in the Battle, second only in number to the Poles, and far exceeding that from any country outside of the UK .
As has been mentioned, not everyone entitled to wear the clasp were pilots. and in the case of the Kiwis 75 % were pilots, and 25% air gunners and observers.During the officially recognised sixteen-week period of the Battle, 20 of those Kiwis lost their lives and a further 40 were killed later in the war. Of the ten top-scoring pilots of the RAF, two were New Zealanders, who between them destroyed 30 German aircraft.
Wynn's book, I've just noticed, was published in 1981.
As has been mentioned, not everyone entitled to wear the clasp were pilots. and in the case of the Kiwis 75 % were pilots, and 25% air gunners and observers.During the officially recognised sixteen-week period of the Battle, 20 of those Kiwis lost their lives and a further 40 were killed later in the war. Of the ten top-scoring pilots of the RAF, two were New Zealanders, who between them destroyed 30 German aircraft.
Wynn's book, I've just noticed, was published in 1981.
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This wasn't the only case of an Allied aircraft being delivered to (what amounted to) 'the other side'. A Spitfire pilot, (I believe he was an American serving with the RAF) diverted to a Vichy French aerodrome in North Africa on his way to Malta, either from Gibraltar or from an aircraft carrier (probably a carrier - could a Spit, even with saddle tanks and on max lean, make it from Gib. to Malta?).
I seem to recall reading that he was not prosecuted after the war, (possibly because he was American and not British or Commonwealth?) which surprised me.
Does anyone have the full story about that incident? From what I've been told of conditions on Malta during the siege, some might say they could hardly blame him not wanting to go there!!
Not the same thing, but there were said to be whole squadrons of B17s and other types parked on Swedish (and Swiss?) airfields towards the end of the war.
I seem to recall reading that he was not prosecuted after the war, (possibly because he was American and not British or Commonwealth?) which surprised me.
Does anyone have the full story about that incident? From what I've been told of conditions on Malta during the siege, some might say they could hardly blame him not wanting to go there!!
Not the same thing, but there were said to be whole squadrons of B17s and other types parked on Swedish (and Swiss?) airfields towards the end of the war.
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Not the same thing, but there were said to be whole squadrons of B17s and other types parked on Swedish (and Swiss?) airfields towards the end of the war.
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Off Thread, but...
For more info on the Swiss connection, read "Winged Diplomat" by P R Reid. Not only did Capt Freddie West gain the RAF's first VC of WW1 flying with with 8 Sqn during the Amien Offensive in Aug 1918, but he was also the Air Attache to Switzerland from where he organised the aircrew evader/POW escape routes as an Air Commodore during WW2. All done with only one leg! (He lost his other leg halfway through earning his VC).
For more info on the Swiss connection, read "Winged Diplomat" by P R Reid. Not only did Capt Freddie West gain the RAF's first VC of WW1 flying with with 8 Sqn during the Amien Offensive in Aug 1918, but he was also the Air Attache to Switzerland from where he organised the aircrew evader/POW escape routes as an Air Commodore during WW2. All done with only one leg! (He lost his other leg halfway through earning his VC).