7 little weeks of Sadness..... XV109 today

[R for Robert]

'The old girl could have been "Guillotined" by a JCB and dumped in Skips'

She will, possibly this week!

[Jimmy Macintosh]

Who parked it at John Lenon International? It's their own fault.

[NutLoose]

Remember the one that taxied out and the wheel rim fell off?? so as if by magic the inflated tyre was still gripping the remains of the wheel, there was a megga discussion as to what to do and at one point mention was made of shooting the tyre out, though concerns were mooted about richochets going up through the fuel tank!.......... I kid you not... I distanced myself from the proceedings at that point, in the end they dragged some SAC out of the wheelbay that had last serviced it, he ran in screwed a deflator in the valve and ran away, it went down and never shifted off the core of the wheel......

on a side note if you want to see a richochet in action meet the worlds luckiest man............. unless you know different

YouTube - Man shoots AR-50...bullet richocet back!!

[matkat]

Beagle many thanks for your kind words I was one of Georges happy crew, you did omit to say he actually joined you not long after that. Sadly I will never have to do such a thing as I left many moons ago, I believe George went to live in the states after he left the RAF and have not heard of him since pity though He was a PITA he was a top bloke.
Notloose sorry I probably put the statement wrong the movers that saw the tyre were Leuchars based and were not on the aircraft they were at the aircraft to move the RMs baggage and equipment. The crew I refered to was the Captain the FE and the GE.

[BEagle]

matkat, yes, the 'wee man' did indeed make the long journey south! I'm sure that, as a team boss, he was a bit of a task master, but what a top chap - particularly when we needed QTRs during our Boris-watching sessions!

As for MAMS teams, I always found them to be hard-working and, if the trainee captain ever deigned to talk to them rather than sitting on the flight deck, sipping coffee and communicating only via the ALM, he would find them very task-orientated.

Having watched the team (on more than one occasion) sweating to sort out a VC10 freight off-load/on-load in sweltering heat at Freetown whilst the self-important ALM faffed and tutted, they have my every sympathy. But I'm sure that others have different recollections - people are only human, after all. Whatever, it was all the same air force and "Movers v. Loadies" is surely something which by now has hopefully been consigned to the trash can of history.

[Truck2005]

As an ex GE myself I feel that I have to put something right here. There are many times that 'pushonitous, is applied to turnarounds, from all directions. Although it is not an excuse, and thank god all turned out ok, the GE's only fault was not insisting on putting the snag in the 700. If he had done that I think there would have been a bit of rethinking on behalf of the crew, (GE,s are not FLIGHT CREW), very difficult to explain that snag when the SengO sees it in the greens.

I have been put in similar positions and if I know I am right about something as potentially dangerous as this I will stand my ground, (and if necessary get off). I was taught this by some extremely good GEs on 10 Sqn during my UT day and their advice stood me well.

As I said, this is no excuse, but the GE comes under a lot of pressure from crews at times and he needs to be able to think clearly. A FE on his back telling him it will do one more landing is the last thing he needs, After all, it is his bum on the seat, what better incentive is there?

[matkat]

Truck, your comment is noted however as they (as in the crew) were twice told from 2 different stations that the tyre was U/S surely that should set alarm bells ringing, as you may note I never blamed anyone that was not for me to do the BoI had that task and I am led to believe he did get blamed for it, also please bear in mind my previous comments where they actually tried to blame me!!
I was also a GE in civilian life on DC-8s L1011s and B747s so I am well aware of the pressure that the job entails.
BEagle, yes indeed He was a hard taskmaster but you reap what you sow and I can honestly say I would not have had it any other way.

[Truck2005]

I know what you mean Matkat. The GE in question was my SAGE when I started and I do not think there was a better one. I learnt from it, (and tyres became my pet hate, ask the line)! The real problem was his crew let him down by not being the total professionals I know those crews normally are. As I said - Pushonitous is a very dangerous thing

[matkat]

Truck, you are indeed correct his crew did let him down and that was apparent during the BoI their attitude to him towards the end of my interview was awful, as it became obvious that they could not blame anyone else all 3 of them turned on him asking various questions about why he did not do this or that, as a 30 year corporal techie at the time their behaviour towards both my team and me and to their supposed collegue was cowardly, not only that for me as a fairly young guy in charge of other even younger having to answer questions from them of why these officers and Master FE were lieing was embarrasing, these young guys are meant to aspire and look up to these people not listen to them blatantly lieing and trying to wriggle out of their responsibilities.
Thats all from me on the subject as even now as you can probably tell still grips me.

[Not a Crew Chief]

November4

Thought that rang a bell so just dug my log book out of the loft.

The trip was originally a westabout taking Fincastle crews from Kinloss to Adelaide. FE was ex Kipper fleet. We then, as you say, headed to HKG for trips to Seoul and Kathmandu for the Ghurka roulement. We used Seoul as Osan was having the runway done and thereby hangs a tale.
Myself and the other GE's (we'd picked up slip crews) stayed for the off/on load and during the evening our passports and papers were taken and examined several times by various officials. Next morning on departure I was deficient one of the many pieces of paper we were given on arrival. I was taken away by a very large - no arguements - Korean official. After an eternity locked in a very small room, a British Army WO with the UN came and asked for my story. He said we had to make our apologies and led me to another office with aforementione heavyweight official. We apologised profusely but were getting nowhere until he asked how much the fine was. The WO then opened his attache case, which I swear had more dollars than any 10 Sqn kitty, and paid a considerable sum. I was then allowed back through the terminal and onto the aircraft still wondering if that had just happened.
I didn't get back to Brize on 109 though, the icing on the cake was being offloaded at Bahrain to assist another GE with what turned out to be a flap assymetry problem. While we waited for a box to come out from UK I didn't think it prudent to mention that if his crew hadn't been so keen to take 109 back, and we'd had a proper handover, we could have taken the box out of my tech pack instead of watching it disappear into the sunset. Happy days.
I've got a couple of photos of 109 at KTM on that trip and will try and upload them.

[Not a Crew Chief]

In better times

Hopefully I've mastered the technology and you should see 2 pictures of 109 at KTM October 1988

[BEagle]

matkat, you have my every sympathy.

Not a Crew Chief, they really were shiny in those days, weren't they!

[bingofuel]

I always thought that colour scheme on the shiny fleet was the best ever. Fairly simple but just looked right. In my opinion never beaten by any military or civil paint job since.

[LAS1997]

Who has got the nose section? I guess GJD Services? For sale perhaps? It would be nice to save a little VC-tenderness! A nose section would look great as a club-house, or museum exhibit. That said, a complete VC10 would be even better.

[forget]

You're right about the colour scheme. A thing of great beauty. I remember going West through the Pacific, following Vulcans to Singapore/Butterworth. We picked up a couple of US Air Force guys in Guam (or maybe Wake) on an R&R scrounge flight. They just wouldn't believe that the beautiful 10 was a 'troop ship', real seats and all, and not a 4 Star's VIP ship. In-flight catering even! Very sad to see their end.

[Squirrel 41]

If the rumour on here that 808 is to be saved for posterity is correct (and let us fervently hope so), what chance that we could get her repainted into the classic shiny white scheme? I, for one, will put hand in pocket to support this.

S41

[BEagle]

The trip was originally a westabout taking Fincastle crews from Kinloss to Adelaide.

When once we had an air force......

[NutLoose]

I didn't get back to Brize on 109 though, the icing on the cake was being offloaded at Bahrain to assist another GE with what turned out to be a flap assymetry problem. While we waited for a box to come out from UK I didn't think it prudent to mention that if his crew hadn't been so keen to take 109 back, and we'd had a proper handover, we could have taken the box out of my tech pack instead of watching it disappear into the sunset. Happy days.

I remember the line going out to do an engine change in Dulles that was taking for ever, excuse after excuse was coming from them and then the LSS got a phone call paid by the bod out in Dulles so as not to go through official channels asking if possible could we put the engine lifting beam they had forgotten on the Thursday? Washington run

Love the pics of 109, though 10 Sqn did not like the refuelling probe fitted to them as it "spoiled the lines."

[BANANASBANANAS]

1986 I think and First Officer Bananas is flying a shiny 10, Brize to Bermuda (night stopping to continue somewhere not very popular) with the Sqn boss (he who will forever be associated with Phnom Penh) as his Captain. Just past top of climb Bananas sees the standby horizon (no go item) topple inverted. Quick scan out of the window to make sure that the blue is where it should be and Bananas is about to announce to the crew what a smart chap he is (being the first to notice this failure) when he feels a slap on the back of his head from very senior Flight Engineer. Bananas takes the 'hint' and shuts up.

Some hours later, Nav announces 'PNR Brize Captain' and four voices announce 'Oh, look the standby horizon has just toppled.'

Resulted in a 4 day layover if memory serves - and that is a story all on it's own!

Happy days.

[moggiee]

Originally Posted by November4

8 Dec 1988 109 was tasked to recover RM pax from Gardermoen when a Hercules went u/s. Gardermoen - Leuchars - Brize no problem except over, Birmingham a bang was heard from the wheel well. Apparently one of the main wheels had exploded and the debris had taken out the fuel lines to 2 of the engines as well as the auto pilot and hydraulic system. The crew managed to recover to Brize and the 50 or so RM and crew evacuated the aicraft via the enmergency slides. We later heard that this was the closest to losing a VC10 that the RAF had come.

I was the co-pilot up front on that. It was an interesting half hour or so!

We didn't lose the autopilot, if memory serves me right, but we did lose the LH hydraulics (requiring manual gear lowering) and perhaps more seriously we lost all 15,000lbs of fuel from the port wing, leaving us a bit tight for fuel on approach at BZN.

matkat and others:

For those who are speculating upon the decision making process that led to the aeroplane getting airborne with a faulty tyre, allow me to explain:

The tyre problem was spotted during the turnaround and the GE wanted to change it as we had a spare in the boot.

The Flt Lt Captain and MEng FE weren't keen on the delay that this would incur. Myself and the nav both thought that we should change it and said so.

Capt and FE went down to have a look at it and came back up to the flight deck to say that the GE now agreed that it was fit for one flight home and that he had signed the tech log (F700) to this extent. The nav and I accepted this as the truth on the basis that if all three of them were in agreement then we were happy to go with their decision.

At the subsequent BoI it transpired that the captain and FE had bullied the GE into signing it off and had then lied to myself and the nav about it, saying that the GE was happy when he in fact was not.

I gave the BoI a 100% correct statement of my understanding of the events and I believe that the nav and GE did the same. I made it clear that the GE had had his doubts but that we'd been told by the captain and FE that he was in agreement that it was OK to go. I'm not sure what the captain and FE told the board as I was not there when they gave evidence and they did not want to talk to me afterwards because they felt that I had failed to "back them up" - and that suggests to me that they were feeling uncomfortable with their actions and possibly with what they'd told the BoI. For my part, I felt that it was important to be honest with the board as the fact needed to come out, and if that upset the captain and FE then so be it.

The board came to the conclusion that the captain and FE had put unfair pressure upon the GE, had lied to myself and the nav and had been unprofessional. They were both punished for their actions. The nav, the GE and I were all reminded that it was our responsibility to be more assertive in the face of such pressure and to stand our ground - other than that there was no sanction against mhyself and the nav but I can't recall what happened with the GE.

I was annoyed with myself for not being more assertive but as a relatively junior co-pilot I was less confident than I should have been with regard to my knowledge of what was and was not right. The nav was also relatively new to type and we both made the "mistake" of trusting more experienced crew members who were, in fact, telling us lies. When not in possession of the full facts it's hard to make the right decision. I do not now, and never have, place any blame upon the GE - only the captain and FE for telling lies to us and myself and the nav for not being assertive enough.

I have never taken anyone's word at face value since then - I always check!

If anyone wants to discuss it further, I'm available by PM.