RAF band in Moscow
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Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue. I studied in Russia for 4 months in 1992 and attended a lecture on the Great Patriotic War, as it called there. When I questioned the lecturer on her knowledge of Britain's participation in the war in the 2 years prior to the entry of the USSR I was met with a blank stare and my question was ignored.
The Red Army was certainly a huge factor in the defeat of Germany, but what the Russians ignore is the fact that their air force, almost entirely a tactical battlefield force, played almost no part in the destruction of German industry and the Luftwaffe, without which a successful invasion would have been impossible. The Navy's contribution in keeping the USSR supplied and fed was officially recognised in 1985 with medals being awarded to Arctic convoy survivors, but there is still an ongoing belief in Russia that the "Fascists" were defeated by Russia alone. Good to see things gradually changing
The Red Army was certainly a huge factor in the defeat of Germany, but what the Russians ignore is the fact that their air force, almost entirely a tactical battlefield force, played almost no part in the destruction of German industry and the Luftwaffe, without which a successful invasion would have been impossible. The Navy's contribution in keeping the USSR supplied and fed was officially recognised in 1985 with medals being awarded to Arctic convoy survivors, but there is still an ongoing belief in Russia that the "Fascists" were defeated by Russia alone. Good to see things gradually changing
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 9th May 2010 at 13:57.
Hope they played 'Eagle Squadron' by Kenneth Alford. Not played half enough anyway by RAF Bands, a cracking good march that celebrates USA pilots who served in the RAF in WW2, principally in the BofB. If we'd lost that then no US involvement in the liberation of Europe, including aid to the USSR. Without that the Great Patriotic War would most probably have been the Great Patriotic Defeat. Either way Europe would be under the jackboots of one tyranny or another still. Semper Fidelis!
Cue revisionist posts...
Cue revisionist posts...
Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue.
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I know there were a couple of guys from JACIG there, but I wasn't aware of the RAF Band being involved. Is this true is it just the normal BBC reporting getting stuff wrong?
Edited to add that I understand from another source that the RAF Band was there as well.
STH
Edited to add that I understand from another source that the RAF Band was there as well.
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 10th May 2010 at 13:56.
@Trim Stab, yes but at least we don't pretend they had nothing to do with the war.
BBC website reporting the Ruskies rejected Prince Charles' offer of attending, which is odd seeing as they let members of our armed forces partake in the parade.
BBC website reporting the Ruskies rejected Prince Charles' offer of attending, which is odd seeing as they let members of our armed forces partake in the parade.
As is acknowledgement by the Allies of Russia's contribution. Their sacrifice in terms of lives lost was far greater than any of the allies.
Russian losses were undeniably enormous - attributable in no small measure to the attitude of the Soviet military leadership who treated their rank and file as little more than cannon fodder. Stalin's execution of thousands of mid and high ranking army officers in the late 1930's also deprived the Red Army of much-needed expertise later on, with officers being promoted for their political beliefs, rather than their military prowess.
I could go on!!
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TTN - you are correct that in the UK there is more respect and acknowledgement for the enormous sacrifice of Russians in WW2, at least amongst the educated population.
Popular culture is another matter - Hollywood has re-written history for the US market, and regrettably that has leaked over here.
Popular culture is another matter - Hollywood has re-written history for the US market, and regrettably that has leaked over here.
As regards German Military Bands, Trim Stab, the "reconciliation" seems already to have begun:
YouTube - ?Preußens Gloria" auf dem Roten Platz in Moskau
As regards the Russian population, that's rather up to them I would suggest. 20 million deaths take a lot of reconciling....
For comparison the Central Band of the Royal Air Force, playing Eagle Squadron (see my post above), Holyrood (RAF Regiment March), and some film music.....
YouTube - Royal Air Force Drill Show
YouTube - ?Preußens Gloria" auf dem Roten Platz in Moskau
As regards the Russian population, that's rather up to them I would suggest. 20 million deaths take a lot of reconciling....
For comparison the Central Band of the Royal Air Force, playing Eagle Squadron (see my post above), Holyrood (RAF Regiment March), and some film music.....
YouTube - Royal Air Force Drill Show
Last edited by Chugalug2; 9th May 2010 at 23:12. Reason: added Central Band of the RAF video
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Again with the totally false & uninformed US-bashing!
The Russian role in WW2 IS taught in US schools... in any course (from elementary school on through University courses) that covers the War in Europe.
The Siege of Leningrad, the Battle of Stalingrad, and the push through Eastern Europe were all afforded their own sections of every text on WW2 I ever saw in my schooling.
The Lend-Lease support for the Soviets and the Murmansk convoys are also covered, along with the massive tank battles of the Eastern Front... and the numbers of troops and casualties were listed to show how much more intense the fighting was when compared to the Allied push through France.
However, also included was the initial German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact, and the Soviet participation (in co-ordination with Germany) in the defeat of Poland in 1939!
Why you "across the pond" hold to the distorted and incorrect view that Hollywierd's garbage is an accurate reflection of how the US views the world is just beyond me... the majority of Americans are quite aware of how distorted that crap is, whether they know the real story or not.
The Russian role in WW2 IS taught in US schools... in any course (from elementary school on through University courses) that covers the War in Europe.
The Siege of Leningrad, the Battle of Stalingrad, and the push through Eastern Europe were all afforded their own sections of every text on WW2 I ever saw in my schooling.
The Lend-Lease support for the Soviets and the Murmansk convoys are also covered, along with the massive tank battles of the Eastern Front... and the numbers of troops and casualties were listed to show how much more intense the fighting was when compared to the Allied push through France.
However, also included was the initial German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact, and the Soviet participation (in co-ordination with Germany) in the defeat of Poland in 1939!
Why you "across the pond" hold to the distorted and incorrect view that Hollywierd's garbage is an accurate reflection of how the US views the world is just beyond me... the majority of Americans are quite aware of how distorted that crap is, whether they know the real story or not.
"Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue."
It has started. The French contribution was recognised quite early - with squadron exchanges with 'Normandie-Nieman', etc.
The UK contribution (especially wrt the Arctic Convoys) has also been recognised by the Russians. Before he died, my Dad was belatedly awarded two commemorative gongs by the Russkies, celebrating his contribution in the Great Patriotic War!
Thus far, though, Russian recognition has been biased towards that part of the allied contribution to Russia's part of the war - and not recognising the import (for example) of D-Day or the Battle of Britain.
It has started. The French contribution was recognised quite early - with squadron exchanges with 'Normandie-Nieman', etc.
The UK contribution (especially wrt the Arctic Convoys) has also been recognised by the Russians. Before he died, my Dad was belatedly awarded two commemorative gongs by the Russkies, celebrating his contribution in the Great Patriotic War!
Thus far, though, Russian recognition has been biased towards that part of the allied contribution to Russia's part of the war - and not recognising the import (for example) of D-Day or the Battle of Britain.
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Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue.
Britain lost less than 1%. 500,000
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GreenKnight - As a Brit living in the US, I can't find fault in your statements that it is taught, my wife is an Elementary teacher. Equally, however, many of my US friends believe the US won the war of 1812, and that WW2 didn't start until late 1941. So exactly what is taught, I don't know. I do know that all the neighborhood kids hate me when they learn about the American Revolution though.
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Oh, yes... the exact content of American history texts (and those of other subjects) is certainly open for improvement... I found myself correcting my teachers from time to time even in 5th grade concerning the presence of mis-information in the texts.
The claim that "everyone at the time of Christopher Columbus thought the world was flat" was one... the reality being that most educated people (including the various nobles CC tried to get financing from) were well aware that the world was round.
They were opposed to his plan because they believed it was of larger diameter than CC did, and that therefore he couldn't make it all the way to the Indies islands (now called the East Indies).
Of course, they were right... his calculations were well short, and if the Americas hadn't been in the way his entire expedition would have starved before coming anywhere near land. He was lucky, not right.
Most of the issues like you mention are due to lazy and inattentive students, however, as they are taught mostly correct facts... they just don't remember then accurately (if they learned them in the first place)..
And yes... the only major battle the US won in the War of 1812 was fought after the treaty ending the war had been signed (New Orleans). Most of the treaty confirmed the British position... but the US did get its own rights confirmed, and a promise by Britain to be more careful in applying its rights.
The claim that "everyone at the time of Christopher Columbus thought the world was flat" was one... the reality being that most educated people (including the various nobles CC tried to get financing from) were well aware that the world was round.
They were opposed to his plan because they believed it was of larger diameter than CC did, and that therefore he couldn't make it all the way to the Indies islands (now called the East Indies).
Of course, they were right... his calculations were well short, and if the Americas hadn't been in the way his entire expedition would have starved before coming anywhere near land. He was lucky, not right.
Most of the issues like you mention are due to lazy and inattentive students, however, as they are taught mostly correct facts... they just don't remember then accurately (if they learned them in the first place)..
And yes... the only major battle the US won in the War of 1812 was fought after the treaty ending the war had been signed (New Orleans). Most of the treaty confirmed the British position... but the US did get its own rights confirmed, and a promise by Britain to be more careful in applying its rights.
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Amazing.
We start off with the RAF Band in Moscow and then TD to the Battle of New Orleans.
Though I suppose there is a connection -1812. A battle in the US and Napoleons retreat from Moscow!
We start off with the RAF Band in Moscow and then TD to the Battle of New Orleans.
Though I suppose there is a connection -1812. A battle in the US and Napoleons retreat from Moscow!
Very true. During WW2, Russia lost 14% of its population. 24,000,000 casualties.
Russia certainly fought bravely and ferociously, but its casualty list is an unreliable indicator of its overall contribution to victory, which in a global sense was certainly less than that of the USA. The USSR, for example, did not declare war on Japan until August 9th, 1945, three days after the Hiroshima bomb, when its troops entered Japanese occupied Manchuria. Their contribution to the war in the Far East, therefore, was virtually nil.
Yes, and there is a growing resurgence of the Stalin cult in Russia, with groups like Nashi harking back to the "good old days". Orwell had it dead right in 1984 , with the Ministry of Truth constantly re-writing history. The Soviets were masters of the art, and the Russians still have a tendency towards it, in spite of recent reforms.
