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RAF band in Moscow

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RAF band in Moscow

Old 9th May 2010, 08:42
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RAF band in Moscow

65th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany
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Old 9th May 2010, 09:49
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Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue. I studied in Russia for 4 months in 1992 and attended a lecture on the Great Patriotic War, as it called there. When I questioned the lecturer on her knowledge of Britain's participation in the war in the 2 years prior to the entry of the USSR I was met with a blank stare and my question was ignored.

The Red Army was certainly a huge factor in the defeat of Germany, but what the Russians ignore is the fact that their air force, almost entirely a tactical battlefield force, played almost no part in the destruction of German industry and the Luftwaffe, without which a successful invasion would have been impossible. The Navy's contribution in keeping the USSR supplied and fed was officially recognised in 1985 with medals being awarded to Arctic convoy survivors, but there is still an ongoing belief in Russia that the "Fascists" were defeated by Russia alone. Good to see things gradually changing

Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 9th May 2010 at 14:57.
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Old 9th May 2010, 16:18
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Hope they played 'Eagle Squadron' by Kenneth Alford. Not played half enough anyway by RAF Bands, a cracking good march that celebrates USA pilots who served in the RAF in WW2, principally in the BofB. If we'd lost that then no US involvement in the liberation of Europe, including aid to the USSR. Without that the Great Patriotic War would most probably have been the Great Patriotic Defeat. Either way Europe would be under the jackboots of one tyranny or another still. Semper Fidelis!
Cue revisionist posts...
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Old 9th May 2010, 17:00
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Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue.
As is acknowledgement by the Allies of Russia's contribution. Their sacrifice in terms of lives lost was far greater than any of the allies.
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Old 9th May 2010, 17:48
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I know there were a couple of guys from JACIG there, but I wasn't aware of the RAF Band being involved. Is this true is it just the normal BBC reporting getting stuff wrong?

Edited to add that I understand from another source that the RAF Band was there as well.

STH

Last edited by SirToppamHat; 10th May 2010 at 14:56.
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Old 9th May 2010, 17:49
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@Trim Stab, yes but at least we don't pretend they had nothing to do with the war.

BBC website reporting the Ruskies rejected Prince Charles' offer of attending, which is odd seeing as they let members of our armed forces partake in the parade.
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Old 9th May 2010, 18:20
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As is acknowledgement by the Allies of Russia's contribution. Their sacrifice in terms of lives lost was far greater than any of the allies.
Well I can't speak for the Americans, French etc but I completely refute the idea that the Russian contribution to the war has ever been denied in this country . From the "Uncle Joe" cult of Stalin during WW2 onwards, there has been widespread awareness of the Russian experience, portrayed in films and tv (the fantastic World at War series devoted several episodes to the Eastern front, Stalingrad, etc). As one who has spent time in Russia I can assure you there was, up to the 90's at least, no equivalent awareness on the part of the Russian people of the allies' part in the war. This of course was through no fault of the Russians themselves, as it was the Soviet government's policy to downplay the actions of the capitalist West in the war, so that they could better portray the defeat of Germany as a triumph for communism.

Russian losses were undeniably enormous - attributable in no small measure to the attitude of the Soviet military leadership who treated their rank and file as little more than cannon fodder. Stalin's execution of thousands of mid and high ranking army officers in the late 1930's also deprived the Red Army of much-needed expertise later on, with officers being promoted for their political beliefs, rather than their military prowess.

I could go on!!

TTN
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Old 9th May 2010, 19:38
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TTN - you are correct that in the UK there is more respect and acknowledgement for the enormous sacrifice of Russians in WW2, at least amongst the educated population.

Popular culture is another matter - Hollywood has re-written history for the US market, and regrettably that has leaked over here.
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Old 9th May 2010, 20:45
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I would like to see more high-profile examples of reconciliation of past differences. It would have been progressive if there had been German troops alongside Angela Merkel.
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Old 9th May 2010, 22:54
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As regards German Military Bands, Trim Stab, the "reconciliation" seems already to have begun:
YouTube - ?Preußens Gloria" auf dem Roten Platz in Moskau
As regards the Russian population, that's rather up to them I would suggest. 20 million deaths take a lot of reconciling....
For comparison the Central Band of the Royal Air Force, playing Eagle Squadron (see my post above), Holyrood (RAF Regiment March), and some film music.....
YouTube - Royal Air Force Drill Show

Last edited by Chugalug2; 10th May 2010 at 00:12. Reason: added Central Band of the RAF video
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Old 10th May 2010, 07:20
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Again with the totally false & uninformed US-bashing!



The Russian role in WW2 IS taught in US schools... in any course (from elementary school on through University courses) that covers the War in Europe.

The Siege of Leningrad, the Battle of Stalingrad, and the push through Eastern Europe were all afforded their own sections of every text on WW2 I ever saw in my schooling.

The Lend-Lease support for the Soviets and the Murmansk convoys are also covered, along with the massive tank battles of the Eastern Front... and the numbers of troops and casualties were listed to show how much more intense the fighting was when compared to the Allied push through France.


However, also included was the initial German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact, and the Soviet participation (in co-ordination with Germany) in the defeat of Poland in 1939!


Why you "across the pond" hold to the distorted and incorrect view that Hollywierd's garbage is an accurate reflection of how the US views the world is just beyond me... the majority of Americans are quite aware of how distorted that crap is, whether they know the real story or not.
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Old 10th May 2010, 11:31
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"Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue."

It has started. The French contribution was recognised quite early - with squadron exchanges with 'Normandie-Nieman', etc.

The UK contribution (especially wrt the Arctic Convoys) has also been recognised by the Russians. Before he died, my Dad was belatedly awarded two commemorative gongs by the Russkies, celebrating his contribution in the Great Patriotic War!

Thus far, though, Russian recognition has been biased towards that part of the allied contribution to Russia's part of the war - and not recognising the import (for example) of D-Day or the Battle of Britain.
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Old 10th May 2010, 17:05
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Russian acknowledgement of their allies' contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is long overdue.
Very true. During WW2, Russia lost 14% of its population. 24,000,000 casualties.

Britain lost less than 1%. 500,000
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Old 10th May 2010, 17:17
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GreenKnight - As a Brit living in the US, I can't find fault in your statements that it is taught, my wife is an Elementary teacher. Equally, however, many of my US friends believe the US won the war of 1812, and that WW2 didn't start until late 1941. So exactly what is taught, I don't know. I do know that all the neighborhood kids hate me when they learn about the American Revolution though.
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Old 10th May 2010, 19:26
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Oh, yes... the exact content of American history texts (and those of other subjects) is certainly open for improvement... I found myself correcting my teachers from time to time even in 5th grade concerning the presence of mis-information in the texts.

The claim that "everyone at the time of Christopher Columbus thought the world was flat" was one... the reality being that most educated people (including the various nobles CC tried to get financing from) were well aware that the world was round.

They were opposed to his plan because they believed it was of larger diameter than CC did, and that therefore he couldn't make it all the way to the Indies islands (now called the East Indies).

Of course, they were right... his calculations were well short, and if the Americas hadn't been in the way his entire expedition would have starved before coming anywhere near land. He was lucky, not right.

Most of the issues like you mention are due to lazy and inattentive students, however, as they are taught mostly correct facts... they just don't remember then accurately (if they learned them in the first place)..

And yes... the only major battle the US won in the War of 1812 was fought after the treaty ending the war had been signed (New Orleans). Most of the treaty confirmed the British position... but the US did get its own rights confirmed, and a promise by Britain to be more careful in applying its rights.
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Old 10th May 2010, 20:14
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Amazing.

We start off with the RAF Band in Moscow and then TD to the Battle of New Orleans.

Though I suppose there is a connection -1812. A battle in the US and Napoleons retreat from Moscow!
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Old 10th May 2010, 21:42
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Very true. During WW2, Russia lost 14% of its population. 24,000,000 casualties.
First of all that statistic is questionable, but let's agree that the figure was enormous. As I have asserted above large numbers of Soviet casualties were brought about by their own attitude to their troops. In addition it is certain that millions of civilians died of starvation. Leaving aside those who died in the siege of Leningrad, the disastrous agricultural policies of the 1930's left the country ill-prepared for war, and unable to feed its people.

Russia certainly fought bravely and ferociously, but its casualty list is an unreliable indicator of its overall contribution to victory, which in a global sense was certainly less than that of the USA. The USSR, for example, did not declare war on Japan until August 9th, 1945, three days after the Hiroshima bomb, when its troops entered Japanese occupied Manchuria. Their contribution to the war in the Far East, therefore, was virtually nil.
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Old 10th May 2010, 23:55
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But still no mention of the estimated 48 to 63 million of their own people murdered by the party under Stalin -nice people to do business with!
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Old 11th May 2010, 12:41
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Yes, and there is a growing resurgence of the Stalin cult in Russia, with groups like Nashi harking back to the "good old days". Orwell had it dead right in 1984 , with the Ministry of Truth constantly re-writing history. The Soviets were masters of the art, and the Russians still have a tendency towards it, in spite of recent reforms.
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