NCO Pilots

[Trojan1981]

I don't know about more advanced machinery making any difference and I don't think that the duties performed by a pilot are necessarily close to those required of an officer, but in Australia there is a sort of comprimise.

It's called SSO (Specialist Service Officer) Pilot. Basicly spec aircrew. Rank limit is Captain and you are only ever employed as a pilot. This came about because most potential pilots don't want to stuff around for 18 months at RMC when all they want to do is fly. The training involves 8 weeks mil skills/KFS training at RMC Duntroon then off to pilot training.
After wings you are promoted to Lt and serve a six year retur of service.
Better still, you don't have to do all of the other officer command bollocks unless you request a transfer to G(General)SO and undertake further training.

This was introduced to address a pilot shortage in AAvn. It still hasn't worked.

[longer ron]

Qualifications (A level,Degree etc ) do not = intelligence !
Some of the top Apache pilots a few years ago were W.O /S Sgt.
Being an Officer does not automatically make one intelligent,I have met some dim people over the years - some were commissioned/some were non comm !!!
Historically some of the Top Brass started out as SGT pilots...there may be many reasons for not having NCA pilots but I doubt lack of intelligence is one of them !

[Winch-control]

[QUOTE
Nobody has yet mentioned the most important point. If the RAF had SNCO pilots and navigators, who would do all the 'Secondary Duties?'
][/QUOTE]

same as today/ all the snco's etc same, but same as today the orriffices take the credit..those that are know...

[clunckdriver]

I was one of the grads in the RCAF when it was decided to make all pilots officers, unlike prevoius courses which were split between NCOs and comisioned pilots, at the time I felt it was a mistake {I was about as mature as most eighteen year olds at the time, if you get my drift} we as a group found ourselves way over our heads at times when it came to dealing with many situations we were placed in. If one looks at the history of NCO pilots in the RCAF many rose to very high rank and made better, more rounded leaders due in part to their NCO backgrounds.{Group Capt Lane, rose from sergent pilot to Group Captain in four years!} It is strange to see an officer pilot flying a modern version of a Jeep,{AKA Bell Jet Ranger} and a private in command of a tank costing about four times as much to the taxpayer and having a fighting role, also our pilots now come in large part from one source, Royal Military College, a very small gene pool indeed, its begining to show that a return to the policy of the past{one third RMC, one third direct entry, one third re mustered ground crew} would do much to improve our Air Force pilot quality.but as long as RMC grads make up most of the senior ranks it aint gonna happen! My first flight was in an Anson flown by a Polish sergent pilot, only later did I find out one is not meant to loop an Anson!

[DC10RealMan]

I once knew a chap who joined the Army as a private soldier and later became a helicopter NCO pilot and had no formal educational qualifications. He is now a Boeing 747 senior training captain.

[pasir]

In the early days of WW2 not all rank and file RAF aircrew enjoyed the privilege of 3 stripes. I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was later made obligatory for ordinary aircrew and would mean they should no longer be at the beck and call of barrack room Sergeants who were otherwise liable to have airmen put on normal duties or fatigues and the likes regardless that only a few hours earlier they may have spent the night over enemy territory or on a similar active service and had had but
an hour or two's sleep.

[chopper2004]

Not sure if this is relevant but came across this in the US Navy website regarding chief warrant officer aviator program where the graduates can fly P-3/E-6/SH/MH-60

Navy Establishes Trial Warrant Officer-to-Pilot Program

Aviators Receive Wings of Gold at Corpus Christi

Again it isn't technically a commissioned officer?

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Trojan1981

, but in Australia there is a sort of comprimise.

It's called SSO (Specialist Service Officer) Pilot. Basicly spec aircrew. Rank limit is Captain and you are only ever employed as a pilot.

Indeed the RAF had the same system 50 years or more ago. These were Direct Commissions where aircrew were recruited and commissioned simply to be aircrew. They were still officers and still had secondary duties but career appointments were only given to Cranwell officers.

The Cranwell officer, who was on the General List, could expect service to age 55 promotion to the highest ranks. There were however a few Cranwell Flt Lt around who had managed to put up a black or otherwise miss the boat.

The scheme was changed to Direct Entry Commission and the upper service period was reduced to age 38 or 16 years service. Short service commissions were available for 5, 8 and 12 years although for the 8/12 they were actually options with the 38/16 as the upper limit. The DEC A had no options and these options were waived for the princely sum of £16. These were Supplementary List commissions and promotion was usually limited to flt lt and there were some fg off who remained at that rank as they didn't pass the promotion exams.

Around 1969, with the downsizing of the RAF, it was realised that 'some' good officers on the Supplementary List were being lost and the career pool was shrinking. The lists were then merged and the Spec Aircrew specialisation was introduced for those professional aircrew that would not expect promotion beyond sqn ldr.

[Spearmint-R33]

Originally Posted by pasir

In the early days of WW2 not all rank and file RAF aircrew enjoyed the privilege of 3 stripes. I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was later made obligatory for ordinary aircrew and would mean they should no longer be at the beck and call of barrack room Sergeants who were otherwise liable to have airmen put on normal duties or fatigues and the likes regardless that only a few hours earlier they may have spent the night over enemy territory or on a similar active service and had had but
an hour or two's sleep.

I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the minimum rank of SNCO for NCA came about during WW2 due to the fact that on being shot down or finding themselves behind enemy lines for whatever reason and once captured thus becoming POW's they wouldn't be expected to do any of the less tangible jobs?

[x213a]

Forgive by boneness but..isn't weapon capability a factor?

[PTC REMF]

Forgive by boneness but..isn't weapon capability a factor?

Why? Please elaborate.

[taxydual]

I believe the reasoning that Captains of Aircraft (from the late '50's) were only to be Commissioned Officers was because they may be called upon to drop 'a bucket of golden sunshine'.

[Fareastdriver]

These were Supplementary List commissions and promotion was usually limited to flt lt

The Supplementary List tie had a ladder with just two rungs at the bottom.

I was the last of the Direct Commision entries. When I was signed on a DC(B) by the Air Attache in Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia, they hadn't been told that the DEC sheme had replaced it. I was legalised some two years later.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Spearmint-R33

I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the minimum rank of SNCO for NCA came about during WW2 due to the fact that on being shot down or finding themselves behind enemy lines for whatever reason and once captured thus becoming POW's they wouldn't be expected to do any of the less tangible jobs?

True.

Officers could volunteer to work. SNCOs were required to work as supervisors. Rank and file were obliged to work. The work required was of course of a non-defence related work.

The film, The Password is Courage, illustrated this well.