Latest Future Brize 'hiccups'
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I think it was Jack, soon to be, 'Jack the Hatch', a Canberra Navigator who selected what he thought was the Master Live switch with loud & embarrassing results, that caused the ageing BAe rep to comment -
'...short of having a monkey with a pointed stick in the cockpit...'
And then you give the monkey a brevet...
'...short of having a monkey with a pointed stick in the cockpit...'
--------------------------
And then you give the monkey a brevet...
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Yes, there are K sims - the problem is, they're crap, nowhere near representative enough of the real ac for realistic sim assy exercises. And a sim assy approach & land is a recurring BCR. Albert can be tricky to handle asymmetric so such practice is very much required.
Blighter, you are partially correct, in that TacAT sorties are the only place that the CHECKS call for pulling the CB, however it's not uncommon, as I recall, to do so when practising multiple sim assy events on an MCT. The warning horn going on and off constantly is a major distraction. It was usual, if the CB had been pulled, to pencil it into the checks for the final pre-landers so it wasn't forgotten.
The horn CAN be cancelled, if it was set off by throttle retardation, but it's a soft cancel, it will go off again and again if the throttle is left in just the right position (see my original post). The other event that sets off the horn is flaps selected greater than 50% with gear up - in this case the horn will not cancel, hence pulling the CB for Tac sorties, since some drop profiles call for more than 50% flap.
BEags,
Think you kind of answered your own question there...
Blighter, you are partially correct, in that TacAT sorties are the only place that the CHECKS call for pulling the CB, however it's not uncommon, as I recall, to do so when practising multiple sim assy events on an MCT. The warning horn going on and off constantly is a major distraction. It was usual, if the CB had been pulled, to pencil it into the checks for the final pre-landers so it wasn't forgotten.
The horn CAN be cancelled, if it was set off by throttle retardation, but it's a soft cancel, it will go off again and again if the throttle is left in just the right position (see my original post). The other event that sets off the horn is flaps selected greater than 50% with gear up - in this case the horn will not cancel, hence pulling the CB for Tac sorties, since some drop profiles call for more than 50% flap.
BEags,
and I agree that such a practice is virtually unheard of in modern aircraft these days
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Blighter, you are partially correct, in that TacAT sorties are the only place that the CHECKS call for pulling the CB, however it's not uncommon, as I recall, to do so when practising multiple sim assy events on an MCT. The warning horn going on and off constantly is a major distraction. It was usual, if the CB had been pulled, to pencil it into the checks for the final pre-landers so it wasn't forgotten.
The horn CAN be cancelled, if it was set off by throttle retardation, but it's a soft cancel, it will go off again and again if the throttle is left in just the right position (see my original post). The other event that sets off the horn is flaps selected greater than 50% with gear up - in this case the horn will not cancel, hence pulling the CB for Tac sorties, since some drop profiles call for more than 50% flap.
The horn CAN be cancelled, if it was set off by throttle retardation, but it's a soft cancel, it will go off again and again if the throttle is left in just the right position (see my original post). The other event that sets off the horn is flaps selected greater than 50% with gear up - in this case the horn will not cancel, hence pulling the CB for Tac sorties, since some drop profiles call for more than 50% flap.
And as a second point - flaps have to move to 70% or greater with the gear up for the horn to sound, and yes you cannot cancel this warning.
It's always nice to be factually correct although this is a rumour forum
downsizer, the word is 'weapon'! Remember Full Metal Jacket:
But honestly, the Future Brize news doesn't seem to get any better....
That font of all knowledge, the Oxford Mail, quotes 'An RAF Brize Norton spokesman' as saying of the C-130 incident:
Undercarriage issues? That's a new one on me! And has this really now been upgraded to an accident?
"This is my weapon, this is my 'gun'; this is for fightin', this is for fun!"
That font of all knowledge, the Oxford Mail, quotes 'An RAF Brize Norton spokesman' as saying of the C-130 incident:
"There were no casualties and a service inquiry has been raised to investigate the cause of the accident.
"It is too early to tell what happened but it did not make an emergency landing, it landed with undercarriage issues"
"It is too early to tell what happened but it did not make an emergency landing, it landed with undercarriage issues"
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Accident
The ICAO definition of an aircraft accident is:
"an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, in which a person is fatally or seriously injured, the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure and/or the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible."
"an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, in which a person is fatally or seriously injured, the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure and/or the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible."
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I'm with Blighter Pilot here. I never used to pull the circuit breaker even when bashing the circuit doing several single/double assy approaches.
(OK I would never pull it at all I had a specialist for that job and it was a pain sometimes having the Eng constantly silencing the horn and keeping the 1000Lbs on the retarded thottle/s)
How did it go? "Throttling back number 1, cancel the horn, Eng to monitor for 1000lbs" It is amazing how fast the memory fades.
The only time I pulled the breaker was on TAC AT sorties and reset it when job complete.
Now???..... TAC trip followed buy MCT put 2 & 2 together??? Come up with 5
I once had to shut down 4 engines for real on an MCT trip! Still managed to land it safely though.
(OK I would never pull it at all I had a specialist for that job and it was a pain sometimes having the Eng constantly silencing the horn and keeping the 1000Lbs on the retarded thottle/s)
How did it go? "Throttling back number 1, cancel the horn, Eng to monitor for 1000lbs" It is amazing how fast the memory fades.
The only time I pulled the breaker was on TAC AT sorties and reset it when job complete.
Now???..... TAC trip followed buy MCT put 2 & 2 together??? Come up with 5
I once had to shut down 4 engines for real on an MCT trip! Still managed to land it safely though.
When I first started working with relatively modern aircraft, I was interested to note the totally different towards C/Bs. For example, a tripped C/B is never routinely reset in civil-certified aircraft, it seems. Only certain listed C/Bs are allowed to be tripped and reset; normally this is to reboot certain avionic computers. This was frequently needed in the early days of the FMS800 installation in the VC10K when (I think) UF21 often had to be tripped and reset to restore the FMS after power was transferred from external to internal power. Most navigators were taught to do this - although the idiot Kelvin Rucksack 
once claimed to know what he was doing (well, he must have done as he was a Gp Capt...). The next thing I knew was that my AI failed.... So he was invited back upstairs and instead a (very) competent NCO did the job for him....which included restoring power to my AI!
If there is this requirement on TAC AT sorties, is there an associated checklist to confirm reset? Not being huggy-fluffy, but surely that would be reasonable?
Neptunus Rex, it's a long time since I left the RAF, but I thought that (apart from death/injury/total loss), the definition of an accident was associated with the Cat of damage? Cat 1 wouldn't be, but Cat 5 certainly would.
once claimed to know what he was doing (well, he must have done as he was a Gp Capt...). The next thing I knew was that my AI failed.... So he was invited back upstairs and instead a (very) competent NCO did the job for him....which included restoring power to my AI!If there is this requirement on TAC AT sorties, is there an associated checklist to confirm reset? Not being huggy-fluffy, but surely that would be reasonable?
Neptunus Rex, it's a long time since I left the RAF, but I thought that (apart from death/injury/total loss), the definition of an accident was associated with the Cat of damage? Cat 1 wouldn't be, but Cat 5 certainly would.
Last edited by BEagle; 15th May 2010 at 21:27.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEagle, you will remember also that it was a function of the GIB in the F4 to use a nav rule to reset CBs.
In a combat aircraft resetting CBs or changing fuses was the norm if it restored the operational function of the aircraft for the mission.
You may also remember the actions on a Vulcan in the case of a suspected double TRU failure. On a mission you would put in a new fuse and keep on putting them in until one worked. In peacetime you did not try and isolate the fault and would land as soon as possible. It was one reason why AEOs used to fly with a pair of dead fuses.
At the appropriate time, after landing, the serviceable fuse would be exchanged for a duff one. This usually applied the right side of the $-£ divide
In a combat aircraft resetting CBs or changing fuses was the norm if it restored the operational function of the aircraft for the mission.
You may also remember the actions on a Vulcan in the case of a suspected double TRU failure. On a mission you would put in a new fuse and keep on putting them in until one worked. In peacetime you did not try and isolate the fault and would land as soon as possible. It was one reason why AEOs used to fly with a pair of dead fuses.
At the appropriate time, after landing, the serviceable fuse would be exchanged for a duff one. This usually applied the right side of the $-£ divide
PN, there was a special CB pulling tool used in the F4 and I don't recall any fightergator ever taking a 'nav rule' on board an F4. I can't remember the drill for double TRU failure in the Vulcan, but most circuits had fuses rather than C/Bs.
I think that it was the Swissair fatal accident near Halifax which highlighted the issue of C/B resetting? Since then, an unexplained C/B trip is never routinely reset in civil-certificated aircraft.
I think that it was the Swissair fatal accident near Halifax which highlighted the issue of C/B resetting? Since then, an unexplained C/B trip is never routinely reset in civil-certificated aircraft.
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I think that it was the Swissair fatal accident near Halifax which highlighted the issue of C/B resetting? Since then, an unexplained C/B trip is never routinely reset in civil-certificated aircraft.
Certain operators routinely break the rules and do this. It's one of the reasons I left a certain freight company - amongst other blatant safety-related issues. Before you say 'you should insist', this results in a one-on-one interview with the owner or dismissal.
You're quite right though, companies who respect the safety ramifications, obey the rules. Leave it tripped unless a greater emergency exists, and get it checked.
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Actually I'm 100% correct - Tac AT sorties are the only sorties during which the CB can be pulled. If it used to be practice decades ago to pull it during MCTs it certainly isn't now.
And as a second point - flaps have to move to 70% or greater with the gear up for the horn to sound, and yes you cannot cancel this warning.
It's always nice to be factually correct although this is a rumour forum
And as a second point - flaps have to move to 70% or greater with the gear up for the horn to sound, and yes you cannot cancel this warning.
It's always nice to be factually correct although this is a rumour forum
But I will restate what I said earlier - Tac sorties are the only place where the checks call for the CB to be pulled. That does not mean you cannot pull a CB for other reasons, for example to disable a distracting and unnecessary persistent warning with its detriment to flight safety - as long as you remember to reset it before actually landing (by pencilling it into the checks). The checks are not the 'be all and end all' and decisions on what is thought to be most conducive to flight safety at the time are down to the crew. I assure you I have seen this practice several times, and my experience on the K fleet was not 'decades ago'. It did not happen on every sortie, but it DID happen, although I suspect that may now be reviewed...
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Shouldn't be any issues now that 60% of the C130K flying has been cancelled by our lords and masters
Anyone want to buy a shop full of t-shirts and badges??
Anyone want to buy a shop full of t-shirts and badges??
Champagne anyone...?
To be honest, it's about time too. Too many people marking time in their careers, bouncing between 31 day currencies, when they should be out collecting hours and experience. 
Champagne anyone...?
Some of the J folk might do nothing in between but at least they're guaranteed to get away on det several times a year and rack up the hours & experience there (even it is on endless Quattro Bastionnes). All LXX could hope for was one route sector every three months.
One could argue that if we spent less time and effort trying to resurrect dead Ks in the Marshalls Pet Semetary then we would have more Js serviceable to keep everyone ticking over. As it is we blow 40% of our effort on keeping 2% of the aircraft flying which in the end just disadvantages everyone.
Couldn't comment on other ME fleets.
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Some of the J folk might do nothing in between but at least they're guaranteed to get away on det several times a year and rack up the hours & experience there (even it is on endless Quattro Bastionnes). All LXX could hope for was one route sector every three months.
)MPA has only just been released after LXX had provided crews constantly for the last 5 years+.
Yes I agree the Sqn had to go because of lack of trg and I also agree that the C130K should also go - however the RAF are tied into servicing contracts that are absolute s
e and unfortunately has to provide support to UK plc that the C130J still cannot do - and no willy waving from the C130K fraternity, its just the truthWhat it does mean is that you hardworking C130J boys will have to pick up the Guard Cmdrs, CoS, FE Cdr, DetCo, Orderly Officer and other additional duties that the 'slackers' on the C130K wing have been doing while not busy 'flying'
Oh and the addittional 4/6/9 month OOA gnd tours that many LXX personnel have completed in the past 24 months.
Rant off - LXX will go until 2013 when it stands-up as the first A400M Sqn, by then the C130J fleet will be on it's knees due to the p
s-poor management imposed upon it.
Last edited by Blighter Pilot; 17th May 2010 at 19:13. Reason: spelling!