RAFAT Future?
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RAFAT Future?
Given the recent accident, a rapidly aging, fast fatiguing and dwindling fleet combined with massive spending cuts across defence, what are the collective thoughts on the future of the Reds?
Are they too expensive? What would the impact be if we did lose this asset?
Are there any other ac types that we could use instead?
Are they too expensive? What would the impact be if we did lose this asset?
Are there any other ac types that we could use instead?
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This is from a news article, so if this thread is from someone trying to get inside info then I think they will be mistaken.
Reds cost around £6mill a year, which isn't much at all. Nimrods cost around £700mill a year until tomorrow.
There is talk about ditching the hawk as the Reds jets are quite old, and the replacement aircraft has been thought could be a turbo-prop for cost saving.
Reds cost around £6mill a year, which isn't much at all. Nimrods cost around £700mill a year until tomorrow.
There is talk about ditching the hawk as the Reds jets are quite old, and the replacement aircraft has been thought could be a turbo-prop for cost saving.
'a rapidly aging'
Is there some form of Dr Who style temporal disturbance around Scampton? Do people get older there quicker?...
'fast fatiguing'
Really? What's your evidence that fatigue on the Hawk aircraft (bearing in mind the Red's aircraft are rotated within the entire fleet) has increased of late?...
'dwindling'
Yes, when we lose an aircraft, it reduces our total stock - which is why we purchase attrition reserves - sensible procurement policy...
Sounds like I'm being pedantic and maybe I am...but maybe I'm trying to understand why a new poster phrases a question in such a prejorative and biased manner. As getsometimein alluded to, if you are a journalist then trawling forums such as this is a very lazy (and innacurate) way of doing a 'vox populi'.
The Hawk has an Out of Service Date (several in fact depending on the unit you are examining) and, funny old thing, the RAF realises that a decision will have to be made on its future. If you want the 'good gen' speak to the MOD, if not then read on below - us PPRuNers are good at half-arsed b@ll@cks!
My offering: a fleet of glossy red Nimrod MR2s - we've still got 9 left right?
Is there some form of Dr Who style temporal disturbance around Scampton? Do people get older there quicker?...
'fast fatiguing'
Really? What's your evidence that fatigue on the Hawk aircraft (bearing in mind the Red's aircraft are rotated within the entire fleet) has increased of late?...
'dwindling'
Yes, when we lose an aircraft, it reduces our total stock - which is why we purchase attrition reserves - sensible procurement policy...
Sounds like I'm being pedantic and maybe I am...but maybe I'm trying to understand why a new poster phrases a question in such a prejorative and biased manner. As getsometimein alluded to, if you are a journalist then trawling forums such as this is a very lazy (and innacurate) way of doing a 'vox populi'.
The Hawk has an Out of Service Date (several in fact depending on the unit you are examining) and, funny old thing, the RAF realises that a decision will have to be made on its future. If you want the 'good gen' speak to the MOD, if not then read on below - us PPRuNers are good at half-arsed b@ll@cks!
My offering: a fleet of glossy red Nimrod MR2s - we've still got 9 left right?
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Perhaps only a little pedantic ;0)…
I was just getting at the fact that an aerobatics team must burn through the fatigue life of the hawk at a huge rate and given there aren’t that many in the fleet it might leave the Reds exposed to some difficult questions.
A synchro pair of MR2s is one display I’d like to see! Would using some of the extra typhoons we have on order be viable?
I was just getting at the fact that an aerobatics team must burn through the fatigue life of the hawk at a huge rate and given there aren’t that many in the fleet it might leave the Reds exposed to some difficult questions.
A synchro pair of MR2s is one display I’d like to see! Would using some of the extra typhoons we have on order be viable?
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How to pay for the Reds
I do not claim this as an original idea, it must have been suggested any times.
Financing the Red Arrows would be a small (probably tax deductable) amount for BAe (possibly the biggest beneficiary from the team, now), to pay for the return in advertising. Other companies e.g. oil, component manufacturers or anyone wanting a very prominent advertising platform could partake. How much do companies throw into Formula 1 racing? I remember reading it was in the six figures some years ago for just the side panels on a car.
Don't say the R. A. F. cannot accept money from outside sources, even in my day sponsorship was accepted from commercial outfits for sports teams. So why not now.
I know many people in mainland Europe like to watch them, it is not just a spectacle for the Brits. Keep them going.
Financing the Red Arrows would be a small (probably tax deductable) amount for BAe (possibly the biggest beneficiary from the team, now), to pay for the return in advertising. Other companies e.g. oil, component manufacturers or anyone wanting a very prominent advertising platform could partake. How much do companies throw into Formula 1 racing? I remember reading it was in the six figures some years ago for just the side panels on a car.
Don't say the R. A. F. cannot accept money from outside sources, even in my day sponsorship was accepted from commercial outfits for sports teams. So why not now.
I know many people in mainland Europe like to watch them, it is not just a spectacle for the Brits. Keep them going.
While we talk of money (wanted) see how the MOD squanders what we allocate to them.
The Ministry of Defence signed the deal for a fleet of multi-role RAF tanker and passenger aircraft – which has been delayed for more than five years – without properly considering any alternative options.
See comments on the highly critical National Audit Office report out today as reported in the Guardian today here:
Audit office slams RAF's private finance initiative nightmare | Business | The Guardian
The Ministry of Defence signed the deal for a fleet of multi-role RAF tanker and passenger aircraft – which has been delayed for more than five years – without properly considering any alternative options.
See comments on the highly critical National Audit Office report out today as reported in the Guardian today here:
Audit office slams RAF's private finance initiative nightmare | Business | The Guardian
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From Gainsey Dec09
Dude, only just made it in time! 
Best wishes to Lingy and the rest of the team.
PS I'd be far happier to see this excuse for a Govt get disbanded than sacrifice our national AT, no matter how much they cost.
Point of Order.
"Reds to Go?" Threads are traditionally brought up in mid-March.
Pah!, Yoof, no respect. Tradition, mumble, grump......
"Reds to Go?" Threads are traditionally brought up in mid-March.
Pah!, Yoof, no respect. Tradition, mumble, grump......
Best wishes to Lingy and the rest of the team.
PS I'd be far happier to see this excuse for a Govt get disbanded than sacrifice our national AT, no matter how much they cost.
Maybe the figure of £6 mil is for the hotel accommodation, rolexes, swan-burgers, PR, more hotel accommodation, expenses etc that the RAFAT junket gets as it travels around the world?
Where do I sign?
Where do I sign?
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In answer to a question in the House of Commons on March 17, Bill Rammell stated that several Hawk T1s are in storage for future use by the Reds. With careful fleet management there's no reason why they won't still be flying in 20 years time, funding permitting of course.
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Crusader to the rescue again...
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Red Arrows’ jets in the firing line
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Red Arrows’ jets in the firing line
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From the above Express article: "It is unlikely any of the 26 replacement Hawk TMk2s on order at a cost of more than £450million will go to the team because they are desperately needed in Afghanistan."
And what does the Express know that we don't?
And what does the Express know that we don't?
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there's no reason why they won't still be flying in 20 years time
Stock Footage of Formation of vintage airplanes
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Why not just give the Reds a bunch of Tornados, then navigators can have the pleasure of posing in red suits.
How would you select the nav tho?
Left a bit, up a bit, right a bit?
How would you select the nav tho?
Left a bit, up a bit, right a bit?
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Reds with Tornado Navs
Think it's already happened...
Initial reports from Lingy and Monty's incident speculate that the last words heard from the CVR moments before impact, was advice saying 'put it anywhere you like me old china?'
Initial reports from Lingy and Monty's incident speculate that the last words heard from the CVR moments before impact, was advice saying 'put it anywhere you like me old china?'
The £6M per year is a bit off - this 2005 BBC article is a bit closer from my recollection...about £20M. IMHO a lot of wonga that should be spent elsewhere.
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Why everyone loves the Red Arrows
I do think that the time is rapidly coming for the RAFAT to be disbanded - surely a 4-ship of Typhoons from 29(F) Sqn worked up pre-season and then only visiting the main attractions (Farnborough, Fairford, Waddington, Leuchars, Paris, etc... up to 8 events) would be more cost effective? Just like the RAF did in the old days - 72 Sqn, 66 Sqn, 54 Sqn, 111 Sqn, 92 Sqn, 74 Sqn and 56 Sqn all provided formation aerobatic teams between 1947 and 1964.
Also, the 85-ish engineers dedicated to the Reds are a valuable commidity that we can ill afford with the TG1 shortages we have.
I would not want to see BBMF disbanded, although 5 Spitfires are a bit extravagant as well - How about the Lanc, Dak, 2 Spits, 2 Hurris and 2 Chippies as a savings measure. Only the OC is full-time aircrew and the rest volunteer their time - the 30 or so engineers could also be re-resourced for the reduced fleet size.
I am totally staggered that we are cutting front-line capability like FJ sqns and ISTAR assets and keeping these fully funded. Having read the pitiful amount of hours the pilot of the last F3 to spank had prior to his accident, it all strikes me as mis-management of priorities.
Hardly surprising that the Brown Jobs have such a derogatory view of the Light Blue is it?
The B Word
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Why everyone loves the Red Arrows
I do think that the time is rapidly coming for the RAFAT to be disbanded - surely a 4-ship of Typhoons from 29(F) Sqn worked up pre-season and then only visiting the main attractions (Farnborough, Fairford, Waddington, Leuchars, Paris, etc... up to 8 events) would be more cost effective? Just like the RAF did in the old days - 72 Sqn, 66 Sqn, 54 Sqn, 111 Sqn, 92 Sqn, 74 Sqn and 56 Sqn all provided formation aerobatic teams between 1947 and 1964.
Also, the 85-ish engineers dedicated to the Reds are a valuable commidity that we can ill afford with the TG1 shortages we have.
I would not want to see BBMF disbanded, although 5 Spitfires are a bit extravagant as well - How about the Lanc, Dak, 2 Spits, 2 Hurris and 2 Chippies as a savings measure. Only the OC is full-time aircrew and the rest volunteer their time - the 30 or so engineers could also be re-resourced for the reduced fleet size.
I am totally staggered that we are cutting front-line capability like FJ sqns and ISTAR assets and keeping these fully funded. Having read the pitiful amount of hours the pilot of the last F3 to spank had prior to his accident, it all strikes me as mis-management of priorities.
Hardly surprising that the Brown Jobs have such a derogatory view of the Light Blue is it?
The B Word
Hardly surprising that the Brown Jobs have such a derogatory view of the Light Blue is it?