KC-X RFP Mk II (merged)
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I hate to argue with you Beags so I put forward a few points that could have allowed the FSTA to have at least the fittings for a probe, with occasional trips for instructor currency, even if the probe itself was normally kept on the shelf. History is not bunk and yes the Victor 2 was never going to receive at night but it sure did. The Tristar was not doing much tanking when they removed the probes (some say it kept them awake) and then it did not come into the thinking of the ex-Tristar staff at MOD at the time of the contract offer. Also at that time the thought was of 23 FSTA airframes, now down to 13 and only a few of those available on a day to day basis, a handful as you say. I would argue that a max onload for an A300 would be closer to 45 minutes but, in practice, average onloads would be significantly less. Surely todays pilots can cope with that (after all we did). I agree the FSTA has no need of boom facilities but whose to know what long range tasking will arrive in the future where tanker-tanker will prove invaluable.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
DoD Buzz: Carter on Mergers: We’re Watching
Ashton Carter, the Pentagon’s top weapons buyer today emphasized that the DoD will not condone defense industry mergers done for the sake of short term profit over the long term health of the defense industrial base; warning that the Pentagon will keep a close watch on future mergers and acquisitions to ensure they result in long-term good........
....The acquisition czar then went on to say that the Pentagon will also have to buy its weapons on the international market, not just from domestic sources due to the fact that when the best weapons can be found abroad, “we owe it to the warfighter” to buy them. Hmm, Does this make anyone else think KC-X?
He also called on foreign nations to open their doors to purchasing U.S. weapons in a similar manner.........
Ashton Carter, the Pentagon’s top weapons buyer today emphasized that the DoD will not condone defense industry mergers done for the sake of short term profit over the long term health of the defense industrial base; warning that the Pentagon will keep a close watch on future mergers and acquisitions to ensure they result in long-term good........
....The acquisition czar then went on to say that the Pentagon will also have to buy its weapons on the international market, not just from domestic sources due to the fact that when the best weapons can be found abroad, “we owe it to the warfighter” to buy them. Hmm, Does this make anyone else think KC-X?
He also called on foreign nations to open their doors to purchasing U.S. weapons in a similar manner.........
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Defnse News: USAF Could Award KC-X Contract by End of Feb.
The U.S. Air Force will award the contract for the long-running KC-X tanker contract before the end of the month, two senior defense officials said.
"We'll roll-off the KC-X, hopefully, at the end of this month," said Maj. Gen. David Scott, U.S. Air Force director of operational capability requirements at an aerospace and defense conference hosted by Aviation Week on Feb. 16.
Less than 20 minutes later at the same conference, Pentagon Comptroller Robert Hale echoed Scott's words. "We're asking for $900 million for the KC-X tanker, hopefully to make an award within the month," Hale said.
Though not directly linked to the comments made by the two senior officials, earlier in the day Ralph Crosby, EADS's North America chief, held a press conference telegraphing the company's revised final bid, which he said, offered lower costs.
Dan Goure, an analyst at the Lexington Institute, Arlington, Va., said that there is "general sense in the community" that the Air Force will select the EADS Airbus A330 derived tanker.
Offering a concurring opinion, Richard Aboulafia, an analyst at the Teal Group, Fairfax, Va., added that politically, the A330 might be an easier choice for the Air Force despite the objections in Congress.
However, no matter which tanker the Air Force chooses, a protest is all but guaranteed, he said.
The U.S. Air Force will award the contract for the long-running KC-X tanker contract before the end of the month, two senior defense officials said.
"We'll roll-off the KC-X, hopefully, at the end of this month," said Maj. Gen. David Scott, U.S. Air Force director of operational capability requirements at an aerospace and defense conference hosted by Aviation Week on Feb. 16.
Less than 20 minutes later at the same conference, Pentagon Comptroller Robert Hale echoed Scott's words. "We're asking for $900 million for the KC-X tanker, hopefully to make an award within the month," Hale said.
Though not directly linked to the comments made by the two senior officials, earlier in the day Ralph Crosby, EADS's North America chief, held a press conference telegraphing the company's revised final bid, which he said, offered lower costs.
Dan Goure, an analyst at the Lexington Institute, Arlington, Va., said that there is "general sense in the community" that the Air Force will select the EADS Airbus A330 derived tanker.
Offering a concurring opinion, Richard Aboulafia, an analyst at the Teal Group, Fairfax, Va., added that politically, the A330 might be an easier choice for the Air Force despite the objections in Congress.
However, no matter which tanker the Air Force chooses, a protest is all but guaranteed, he said.
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You mean the GE/RR F136... which is the "back-up" engine for the F-35?
A US company (GE) is losing out on this as well.
Note that GE has the majority share on this engine... but it is a couple of years behind the primary engine for the aircraft (P&W's F135), and would still take a considerable sum of money to complete for service.
That is just how it is when a government has way overspent itself... unnecessary things, like a second engine design for an aircraft where the primary engine is meeting all requirements and has basically completed all development, tend to get chopped in the process of cutting back on wasteful spending.
A US company (GE) is losing out on this as well.
Note that GE has the majority share on this engine... but it is a couple of years behind the primary engine for the aircraft (P&W's F135), and would still take a considerable sum of money to complete for service.
That is just how it is when a government has way overspent itself... unnecessary things, like a second engine design for an aircraft where the primary engine is meeting all requirements and has basically completed all development, tend to get chopped in the process of cutting back on wasteful spending.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
U.S. Air Force Tanker Award will be Announced Thursday
09:39 GMT, February 23, 2011 The U.S. Air Force will announce the winner of the $35 billion KC-X tanker contract on Thursday, February 24 after financial markets close. Judging from the frequency with which Pentagon acquisition chief Ashton Carter has been talking up the notion of a "globalized" defense market recently, European aerospace giant EADS is the winner.
If EADS rival Boeing has indeed lost, it probably will not issue substantive comments on the outcome until it has been debriefed by the Air Force. Once it has heard how the decision was made, it can determine whether there are grounds for a formal protest.
EADS is already acting like it has won, which isn't surprising since it knows its plane received a higher warfighting effectiveness rating. Boeing could challenge the rating methodology and several other facets of the selection process, but since price is the key discriminator in the outcome, it is more likely to pursue a political strategy focusing on EADS use of prohibited trade subsidies in developing and marketing its planes.
09:39 GMT, February 23, 2011 The U.S. Air Force will announce the winner of the $35 billion KC-X tanker contract on Thursday, February 24 after financial markets close. Judging from the frequency with which Pentagon acquisition chief Ashton Carter has been talking up the notion of a "globalized" defense market recently, European aerospace giant EADS is the winner.
If EADS rival Boeing has indeed lost, it probably will not issue substantive comments on the outcome until it has been debriefed by the Air Force. Once it has heard how the decision was made, it can determine whether there are grounds for a formal protest.
EADS is already acting like it has won, which isn't surprising since it knows its plane received a higher warfighting effectiveness rating. Boeing could challenge the rating methodology and several other facets of the selection process, but since price is the key discriminator in the outcome, it is more likely to pursue a political strategy focusing on EADS use of prohibited trade subsidies in developing and marketing its planes.
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Cass/aim Info
Assuming that the KC-30 wins the USAF tanker bid, does anyone out there have info on the training for the Saudi's and UAE on the jet...?
I am ex tanker /330 military and it seems that there may be opportunities to do some training for them in the Middle East perhaps - looking for some contacts within the CASS/AIM area doing this at the moment to get a chat going, find more info.
I believe the UAE air force guys are flying the 330 with Etihad at the moment but will need to be trained over onto the KC/30?
thanks
WJA
I am ex tanker /330 military and it seems that there may be opportunities to do some training for them in the Middle East perhaps - looking for some contacts within the CASS/AIM area doing this at the moment to get a chat going, find more info.
I believe the UAE air force guys are flying the 330 with Etihad at the moment but will need to be trained over onto the KC/30?
thanks
WJA
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Unless the US DoD have struck some kind of deal with Boeing (Maybe accelerate KC-Y on the premise that it will require a smaller tanker, ergo Boeing 767) then I am afraid I think todays announcement on KC-X will be nothing more than a paper work excercise preceding an intense legal battle. I doubt we will see the real KC-X award this side of 2013 unless some kind of behind the scenes deal is struck with both bidders.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
/24/2011 - WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- Deputy Secretary of Defense William Lynn, Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition Technology and Logistics Ashton Carter, Secretary of the Air Force Michael Donley and Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz will announce the KC-X tanker contract award at 5:10 p.m. EST, Feb. 24. (22:10 UTC)
This news conference will stream live on the Pentagon Channel website, The Pentagon Channel.
This news conference will stream live on the Pentagon Channel website, The Pentagon Channel.
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Beoing wins
Surprise Surprise
Beoing wins. The USAF having been told to go away and come back with the "Right" Answer has bought beoing
Boeing news | Boeing wins huge Air Force tanker contract | Seattle Times Newspaper
Beoing wins. The USAF having been told to go away and come back with the "Right" Answer has bought beoing
Boeing news | Boeing wins huge Air Force tanker contract | Seattle Times Newspaper
Now watch Boeing struggle with their high-risk programme, pods which don't work properly etc. etc.....
Still, they're doing OK with the 7-late-7......
Still, they're doing OK with the 7-late-7......
In short...."Boeing met the essential requirements & was >1% cheaper".
Question from floor - "so why is the new Boeing EMD phase more expensive than the one placed with EADS in 2008?"
Cough....
Question from floor - "so why is the new Boeing EMD phase more expensive than the one placed with EADS in 2008?"
Cough....
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The development phase may cost more, but the USAF was looking at total program costs including estimated life-time operational costs... and apparently that last was where Boeing made up the difference and pulled ahead.
Funny... back years ago I was supporting Boeing, then I slowly was won over to the Euro side... and now am somewhat annoyed at this, but not really surprised.
Now the USAF needs to just do the smart thing and announce the non-competition, sole-source award of KC-Y (KC-135R replacement) to EADS.
Note that this was expected to total around 195 aircraft (15 per year 2024-2036), while KC-X (KC-135E replacement) is 175 production aircraft & 4 developmental aircraft.
Perhaps the balance can be adjusted to 200 KC-46A and 170 KC-45B (new competition, new variant letter), just to prevent any Boeing protests?
The KC-Z (KC-10 replacement) was expected to be in production starting in ~2036... that would be the next real competition (9 per year from 2037-2048, for ~108 total).
Funny... back years ago I was supporting Boeing, then I slowly was won over to the Euro side... and now am somewhat annoyed at this, but not really surprised.
Now the USAF needs to just do the smart thing and announce the non-competition, sole-source award of KC-Y (KC-135R replacement) to EADS.
Note that this was expected to total around 195 aircraft (15 per year 2024-2036), while KC-X (KC-135E replacement) is 175 production aircraft & 4 developmental aircraft.
Perhaps the balance can be adjusted to 200 KC-46A and 170 KC-45B (new competition, new variant letter), just to prevent any Boeing protests?
The KC-Z (KC-10 replacement) was expected to be in production starting in ~2036... that would be the next real competition (9 per year from 2037-2048, for ~108 total).
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Beags
Sorry I couldn't tell you earlier mate, but the "All American" KC-767NG will have BRITISH wing pods and a BRITISH designed centreline hose and drogue unit on board. Manufacturing will be done in the USA, but the design, development and qualification will be done here in blighty.
Boeing Wins Pentagon Tanker Job - WSJ.com
Boeing "shoring up its position as a US national champion.." Priceless..
I think the KC-767NG when all is said and done will be about as American as beef and ale pie!!
Now watch Boeing struggle with their high-risk programme, pods which don't work properly etc. etc.....
Boeing Wins Pentagon Tanker Job - WSJ.com
Boeing "shoring up its position as a US national champion.." Priceless..
I think the KC-767NG when all is said and done will be about as American as beef and ale pie!!
Last edited by Flyt3est; 25th Feb 2011 at 10:18.
Good to hear that news! At least the wing pods should now work - unlike the junk on the KC-767I. Perhaps the same company might now make the Italians an offer they can't refuse?
So it's just the very high risk flight deck design which is likely to cause programme slippage.
(Beef and ale pie - yum! Have you discovered the 'Pieminister' moo pie or pm pie? Made down Brizzle way.)
So it's just the very high risk flight deck design which is likely to cause programme slippage.
(Beef and ale pie - yum! Have you discovered the 'Pieminister' moo pie or pm pie? Made down Brizzle way.)
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Boeing is trying to claim the "best" tanker won while politcians are claiming they won.
So probably politicians selected the "best" tanker this time.
Very amusing
I can imagine Lockheed is not so happy.
Some of the governments they export their machines to might be watching and learning here.
So probably politicians selected the "best" tanker this time.
Very amusing
I can imagine Lockheed is not so happy.
Some of the governments they export their machines to might be watching and learning here.