The Falklands / The Malvinas - (again?)
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we've got all these old grey ships sitting in docks. fill em with fuel. add troops and guns put some harriers in the helo hangers and sail em down south. Do I have to all of the thinking here.
How many sqauddies would tun their nose up at a three month fishing trip down FI way?
How many sqauddies would tun their nose up at a three month fishing trip down FI way?
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Haven't the RAF got a brand new MPA rolling of the production line as we speak?
From open sources, does it not have a capability and potential that would have made Bomber Harris weep with joy ?
Isn't it going straight into a hangar for a couple of years while 40 years of MPA experience and excellence shrivels faster than a hard on in the snow.
Agile Adaptable Capable ?
From open sources, does it not have a capability and potential that would have made Bomber Harris weep with joy ?
Isn't it going straight into a hangar for a couple of years while 40 years of MPA experience and excellence shrivels faster than a hard on in the snow.
Agile Adaptable Capable ?
DADDY-OH wrote
Sea Eagle was retired in April 1999 without a replacement.
Source
House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 19 Dec 2001 (pt 9)
TJ
8 GR4's with Sea Eagles
Source
House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 19 Dec 2001 (pt 9)
TJ
Last edited by TEEEJ; 18th Feb 2010 at 20:00.
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Ancient history
Does anyone remember this particular quote? I especially admire the way in which Maggie implies that she had nothing to do with the Endurance decision.
Mr. James Callaghan
On a related question, is the Prime Minister aware that the Government's decisions to withdraw and pay off HMS "Endurance" when she returns from the South Atlantic is an error that could have serious consequences? Is she further aware that this stale old proposition was put to me on more than one occasion when I was Prime Minister and after considering it I turned it down flat? Will she please do the same?
§ The Prime Minister
I recognise that this was a very difficult decision for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that there are many competing claims on the defence budget, even though we are increasing it substantially. He will also know that the defence capability of that ship is extremely limited. My right hon. Friend therefore felt that other claims on the defence budget should have greater priority. (Hansard, 9th Feb, 1982)
Mr. James Callaghan
On a related question, is the Prime Minister aware that the Government's decisions to withdraw and pay off HMS "Endurance" when she returns from the South Atlantic is an error that could have serious consequences? Is she further aware that this stale old proposition was put to me on more than one occasion when I was Prime Minister and after considering it I turned it down flat? Will she please do the same?
§ The Prime Minister
I recognise that this was a very difficult decision for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that there are many competing claims on the defence budget, even though we are increasing it substantially. He will also know that the defence capability of that ship is extremely limited. My right hon. Friend therefore felt that other claims on the defence budget should have greater priority. (Hansard, 9th Feb, 1982)
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1982 Repeated?
Aside from all the arguments about relative capabilities, the key issue is one of political will. There probably isn't the same will in Argentina to repeat the decisions of 1982 but the worrying fact is in the UK we are seeing that period played out all over again.
Put simply, with forces over-commited in a war Brown inherited and frankly wishes he didn't have, a govt who really wishes the military were something they didn't have to consider and an economic crisis of huge magnitude, there is no chance of us doing anything sensible as pre-emptive action. Unless we take the national eye off the economic ball by invading somehwere............
And as for the Jeremy Kyle Show fodder us tax payers fund at the expense of a genuine contribution to national well being, perhaps if we rehoused them in the FI the Argies would think twice anyway!! Better yet, they could have them.
Put simply, with forces over-commited in a war Brown inherited and frankly wishes he didn't have, a govt who really wishes the military were something they didn't have to consider and an economic crisis of huge magnitude, there is no chance of us doing anything sensible as pre-emptive action. Unless we take the national eye off the economic ball by invading somehwere............
And as for the Jeremy Kyle Show fodder us tax payers fund at the expense of a genuine contribution to national well being, perhaps if we rehoused them in the FI the Argies would think twice anyway!! Better yet, they could have them.
All this talk of Argie SF taking the airfield - twaddle! Do you not think the Roulement Infantry Company and the rest of the forces on the FIs will have something to say about that? The Buzos Tácticos (equivalent to SBS) are not sufficient in number to mount a big enough raid to secure and hold against the combined UK and FI Defence Forces that are ever present. They could blow something up and be a right pain the ass, but that's about it.
I would hope that we would not be stupid enough not to increase our security patrols and start arming the military if the tensions start to spiral - if they haven't already?
The B Word
I would hope that we would not be stupid enough not to increase our security patrols and start arming the military if the tensions start to spiral - if they haven't already?
The B Word
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However, in retrospect it was the right decision to pay off HMS Encumbrance.... The ship was old, lacked any credible sensors and was in desperate need of updating. Thankfully, the Argentinian invasion saved the name HMS Endurance if not the ship.
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Perhaps appropriate to the current discussion; (Gun) busting makes York feel good
We do appreciate that it is, perhaps, presented more dramatically than it would have been.
West Falkland is also home to two RAF radar sites – Mounts Alice and Byron. With both down temporarily for routine maintenance, York filled the gap, providing an ‘air picture’ for the islands’ military command before the radar sites were powered back up.
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Didn't they learn with the Vulcan OSD? Why not wait until April and the Rods will be gone, one less thing to hinder their long standing ambition. In fact why not bid for them, make sure they are turned into coke cans and then carry out plan B.
Sorry Daddy Oh, you shouldn't get an answer here, even if it's only a rumour site.
Sorry Daddy Oh, you shouldn't get an answer here, even if it's only a rumour site.
CAUTION
Hate to be the Fun Police, but by reading through these posts, I have identified a lot of accumulated information about force dispositions, capabilities and availabilities, whilst not necessarily protectively marked, it is not generally in the open domain. I hesitate to call BEADWINDOW but I suggest that contributors -especially those who may be/or were recently serving - moderate what they post. This is a particularly sensitive time in the South Atlantic and we don't need to 'up the Anti' any further.
Remember that 'quantity has a quality of its own', before I am screamed down by ill-informed posters claiming that they read it in Janes, or wherever...
I got back to an earlier post - is GoAg actions on merchant shipping contrary to UNCLOS III (ie Law of the Sea)?
WP
Remember that 'quantity has a quality of its own', before I am screamed down by ill-informed posters claiming that they read it in Janes, or wherever...
I got back to an earlier post - is GoAg actions on merchant shipping contrary to UNCLOS III (ie Law of the Sea)?
WP
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Two SSN's, one with a ton of Spearfish for the troop transports, the other with Tomahawks for the airbases. Does the Argentinian navy still have a carrier? Bet the Andrew would like to put that on the bottom in short order. Any air assault that leaks past the Typhoons would be mopped up by the RIC and the FI Def Force. No, probably a bad career move for Argentina. Think again, lads.
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and the official line is....
Defence News
So that's OK then 1 x Type 42, an RFA and a patrol boat armed with a 30 mm gun, 2 × Mk44 Miniguns, 2 × GPMGs. Yes that is a major deterent!
The RFA certainly scared the pirates when they took a yatch the other month. In 1982, wasn't there another survey ship in the area...that didn't stop the invasion either.
The report reads like including the BBMF in the current strength of the RAF.
Defence of the Falklands
There is widespread media coverage of tensions over British companies' intended oil explorations in the Falkland Islands which the Argentinean Government is protesting against. The coverage focuses on perceived actions by the MOD to bolster up its defence of the islands.
In a particular comment piece in The Daily Telegraph, Damien McElroy argues that Britain could not once again assemble a task force of the kind sent to the Falklands following the Argentine invasion in 1982.
The UK has transformed its military presence in the Falklands compared with the small force in place before the 1982 invasion.
The question of whether or not a task force identical in nature to that sent in 1982 could be dispatched once again is therefore totally academic. The South Atlantic Overseas Territories are now defended to such an extent that such an emergency course of action should never again need to be taken. In 1982, the situation was very different.
The UK Government is fully committed to the South Atlantic Overseas Territories. A deterrence force is maintained on the islands and in the South Atlantic, which comprises a range of land, air and maritime capabilities.
We have stationed on the Falkland Islands a sizeable garrison of Service personnel, four of the most up-to-date air defence aircraft in the Royal Air Force's fleet, and other air assets.
In the South Atlantic we have an enduring Royal Navy presence currently provided by HMS York (Type 42 destroyer), HMS Clyde (Falkland Islands Patrol Vessel), RFA Wave Ruler (Fleet Oiler) and HMS Scott (Survey Vessel). None of this was the case in 1982, prior to the Argentine invasion, when the Falkland Islands were far less well defended.
There is widespread media coverage of tensions over British companies' intended oil explorations in the Falkland Islands which the Argentinean Government is protesting against. The coverage focuses on perceived actions by the MOD to bolster up its defence of the islands.
In a particular comment piece in The Daily Telegraph, Damien McElroy argues that Britain could not once again assemble a task force of the kind sent to the Falklands following the Argentine invasion in 1982.
The UK has transformed its military presence in the Falklands compared with the small force in place before the 1982 invasion.
The question of whether or not a task force identical in nature to that sent in 1982 could be dispatched once again is therefore totally academic. The South Atlantic Overseas Territories are now defended to such an extent that such an emergency course of action should never again need to be taken. In 1982, the situation was very different.
The UK Government is fully committed to the South Atlantic Overseas Territories. A deterrence force is maintained on the islands and in the South Atlantic, which comprises a range of land, air and maritime capabilities.
We have stationed on the Falkland Islands a sizeable garrison of Service personnel, four of the most up-to-date air defence aircraft in the Royal Air Force's fleet, and other air assets.
In the South Atlantic we have an enduring Royal Navy presence currently provided by HMS York (Type 42 destroyer), HMS Clyde (Falkland Islands Patrol Vessel), RFA Wave Ruler (Fleet Oiler) and HMS Scott (Survey Vessel). None of this was the case in 1982, prior to the Argentine invasion, when the Falkland Islands were far less well defended.
So that's OK then 1 x Type 42, an RFA and a patrol boat armed with a 30 mm gun, 2 × Mk44 Miniguns, 2 × GPMGs. Yes that is a major deterent!
The RFA certainly scared the pirates when they took a yatch the other month. In 1982, wasn't there another survey ship in the area...that didn't stop the invasion either.
The report reads like including the BBMF in the current strength of the RAF.
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and if you think we're in a bad state, I'd suggest looking up the Argentine forces capability....
Why let the truth get in the way of the press talking up a good old war? Sorry, conflict...
Why let the truth get in the way of the press talking up a good old war? Sorry, conflict...
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Bit of a silly discussion really.
What matters is the relative strengths of our military capabilities, rather than just how much less we have than last time we went at it.
They have nothing new since last time, minus a carrier, a cruiser
a sub and lots of aircraft etc.
We actually have, in many ways, a vastly superior fleet from the one that went down last time. We could do with SHAR certainly, but in terms of air defence, strike and amphibious capability we are far stronger.
Phalanx, Goalkeeper, Seawolf, Ocean, Bulwark, Albion, Type 45 (ish
) sub-launched Tomahawk (no need for Vulcan, and it might actually do real rather than political damage) Lynx Mk8, Merlin, GR9, Defensive aids on A/C, Vikings, hugely enhanced and enlarged SF, Smart bombs, Seaking 7, troops with decent kit, GMLRS, ships with modern damage survivability, the list goes on.
I have to say that given the chance to go back in history and choose which fleet to send, if I had the choice, I would send our much smaller but more capable one.
What matters is the relative strengths of our military capabilities, rather than just how much less we have than last time we went at it.
They have nothing new since last time, minus a carrier, a cruiser
a sub and lots of aircraft etc.We actually have, in many ways, a vastly superior fleet from the one that went down last time. We could do with SHAR certainly, but in terms of air defence, strike and amphibious capability we are far stronger.
Phalanx, Goalkeeper, Seawolf, Ocean, Bulwark, Albion, Type 45 (ish
) sub-launched Tomahawk (no need for Vulcan, and it might actually do real rather than political damage) Lynx Mk8, Merlin, GR9, Defensive aids on A/C, Vikings, hugely enhanced and enlarged SF, Smart bombs, Seaking 7, troops with decent kit, GMLRS, ships with modern damage survivability, the list goes on.I have to say that given the chance to go back in history and choose which fleet to send, if I had the choice, I would send our much smaller but more capable one.
