How To Reduce Airforce To 31,000
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Your point being? Have you really any idea how bad pay and conditions are currently for civ copilots? For sure, pilots with legacy airlines or on long term contracts are still doing ok - but you won't get a new entry job anywhere near those figures. If you banged out of the FJ fleet now, with say about 2000 hours, you would have to invest a fair wack to get civ basic qualifications, then you would have to either buy a type-rating or at least accept a long term bond on slave wages while repaying the "investment" the operator has made with you.
Why are the RAF still paying flying pay if it is for "retention"? It is not as if ex military aircrew are in any demand in civvy street.
Ex-RAF Pilots are prevelant in companies such as Goldman Sachs, Mckinseys et al, mainly due to their abilities and experience.
So cut flying pay and do the banks recruiting for them. Makes sense if you come from Planet Senior Officer.
Have you really any idea how bad pay and conditions are currently for civ copilots?
A mere 2 or 3 years ago, there were plenty of early-30s Flt Lts jumping ship to airlines various and arriving with roughly the same salary. I'm pretty certain in another couple of years it'll be the same.
Flying pay is also there for reasons other than "you might earn more than basic Flt Lt on the outside," you know.
minigundiplomat,
"Ex-RAF Pilots are prevelant in companies such as Goldman Sachs, Mckinseys et al, mainly due to their abilities and experience."
ER, as someone who has daily contact with such companies I can assure you that they are NOT!
Why on earth would they be?
"Ex-RAF Pilots are prevelant in companies such as Goldman Sachs, Mckinseys et al, mainly due to their abilities and experience."
ER, as someone who has daily contact with such companies I can assure you that they are NOT!
Why on earth would they be?
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I believe that there are a few, pehaps not as many as perhaps suggested.
As an aside, I remember how sick it made me feel that every member of the RAF could fit (seated) inside Old Trafford after joining a force of well over 100k. It must nearly be time that everybody could get a seat at Telford United!
.....which I suppose is better then the Navy at Gay Meadow!
As an aside, I remember how sick it made me feel that every member of the RAF could fit (seated) inside Old Trafford after joining a force of well over 100k. It must nearly be time that everybody could get a seat at Telford United!
.....which I suppose is better then the Navy at Gay Meadow!
ER, as someone who has daily contact with such companies I can assure you that they are NOT!
minigunthing,
Not aware of any on the Board of Directors, nor on the Executive, nor heading up any departments. But then there are thousands of folk employed all over the City by them so I presume that Tiger_mate is nearer the mark when he says that there are "a few." With such a huge corporation you do "get a few" of almost any background you care to mention.
Not sure why ex helicopter crew would be so useful to one of the worlds largest investment banks.
Not aware of any on the Board of Directors, nor on the Executive, nor heading up any departments. But then there are thousands of folk employed all over the City by them so I presume that Tiger_mate is nearer the mark when he says that there are "a few." With such a huge corporation you do "get a few" of almost any background you care to mention.
Not sure why ex helicopter crew would be so useful to one of the worlds largest investment banks.
Gainesy,
Why thank you, that does indeed make perfect sense.
I didn't consider the Chauffeurs.............
Next time I am 'chaffeured' by one I shall ask.
Why thank you, that does indeed make perfect sense.
I didn't consider the Chauffeurs.............
Next time I am 'chaffeured' by one I shall ask.
In case I was being too subtle in post 30, or people don't know, PVR waiting times for all ground trades in the RAF was reduced to 6 months on 1 Feb 10.
Of course, another way of reducing the RAF to 31,000 is to drop the hint that it will be combining with either the RN or Army......
Of course, another way of reducing the RAF to 31,000 is to drop the hint that it will be combining with either the RN or Army......
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My bold. Alex, are you suggesting we adjust the amount of flying pay aircrew receive on a daily basis, based on the current fitness of the employment market?
MGD even makes the point that some ex-RAF pilots are now working in the city.
The situation *might* get better in around two years - but don't hold your breath. There is a huge amount of slack in the existing civvy pilot labour market at the moment, with experienced ATPLs working on low pay, RHS, instructing etc. They'll all be well ahead of ex-mil pilots coming onto the market in a couple of years time, no matter what your previous military experience (except maybe ex-Sentinel?).
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Alex, I'm pretty confident that cutting flying pay would drastically effect retention (by 1 man anyway). Sorry to hear that there are few flying jobs out there but there is more to life. If the current work life-balance were to be significantly eroded, such as a large pay cut, then people would vote with their feet and get on with something else. If you leave to work in the city or anything else you are just as 'gone' to the RAF.
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Good troll -- although I'm sure there really are people* sitting around in Handbrake House who, if tasked with reducing us down to 31,000 bods, would decide that the best thing to do would be to try and get rid of all the aircrew first by ****canning aircrew-specific retention measures. What do those flyboys all do, anyway? They take hours to respond to emails, their admin orders still have underlined headings and uppercase signature blocks even though they went out of JSP101 TWO YEARS AGO, and some days they don't even check their JPA workflows at all...
Dave
* you know the sort I'm talking about -- blue shirt, box crease, 10 secondary duties and 500 new emails sent per day to get their name noticed...
Dave
* you know the sort I'm talking about -- blue shirt, box crease, 10 secondary duties and 500 new emails sent per day to get their name noticed...
I'm totally with dash2 here.
When I was a brand new pilot I would gladly have worked for far less than a Fg Off gets paid - and getting flying pay was just a bonus! During the first few years of an officer's career, the pay and conditions compare favourably with other professions - long hours, unpaid internships,donkey work and cut-throat competition are all very common for new graduates seeking to climb onto the corporate ladder.
Later on, though, the pay doesn't reflect the increase in workload and responsibility, in my opinion. But people leaving to start a second career don't just do it for the money - some are looking to reclaim some family time, some have had enough of moving around every 3 years and want to put down roots, some just want to try something different in life.
Flying pay isn't tied to the health of the airline job market. Much more important is the cost to MoD of training aircrew (hence why WSOs and WSOps get flying pay as well). It doesn't matter what civvy careers aircrew go to - the point of flying pay is to encourage them to stay and maximise the value obtained from the expensive training. More experienced aircrew get more flying pay as they have built up a large pool of experience at even greater expense - it's even more in the MoD's interest to hang onto us.
When I was a brand new pilot I would gladly have worked for far less than a Fg Off gets paid - and getting flying pay was just a bonus! During the first few years of an officer's career, the pay and conditions compare favourably with other professions - long hours, unpaid internships,donkey work and cut-throat competition are all very common for new graduates seeking to climb onto the corporate ladder.
Later on, though, the pay doesn't reflect the increase in workload and responsibility, in my opinion. But people leaving to start a second career don't just do it for the money - some are looking to reclaim some family time, some have had enough of moving around every 3 years and want to put down roots, some just want to try something different in life.
Flying pay isn't tied to the health of the airline job market. Much more important is the cost to MoD of training aircrew (hence why WSOs and WSOps get flying pay as well). It doesn't matter what civvy careers aircrew go to - the point of flying pay is to encourage them to stay and maximise the value obtained from the expensive training. More experienced aircrew get more flying pay as they have built up a large pool of experience at even greater expense - it's even more in the MoD's interest to hang onto us.
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proone,
easy, just ask him when you're washing his windscreen.
Seriously, why are you on a forum like this if you're so quick to denigrate the abilities of HM Forces aircrew. City folk do not have a great reputation at the moment for competence or professionalism - maybe that's why HM aircrew would be exempt from serving in exec positions in such illustrious company (ies). It's got to be a doddle after what I've done in the last 25 years. I might give it a go when I get my P45 from the service.
easy, just ask him when you're washing his windscreen.
Seriously, why are you on a forum like this if you're so quick to denigrate the abilities of HM Forces aircrew. City folk do not have a great reputation at the moment for competence or professionalism - maybe that's why HM aircrew would be exempt from serving in exec positions in such illustrious company (ies). It's got to be a doddle after what I've done in the last 25 years. I might give it a go when I get my P45 from the service.
Strobin Purple,
Afraid that the going rate for a Barrister rather precludes our employment as washers of anything, well, anything physical that is!
Why am I on here? Well, I used to BE HM forces front line aircrew and was pointed here some years ago by a mutual friend.
As to denigrating said aircrew abilities, where did I do that? I spend most of my working days with merchant banks and the likes these days and the abilities of aircrew seem totally irrelevant to what they do. Hence I don't seem to meet any. Not denigrating, just a fact.
Afraid that the going rate for a Barrister rather precludes our employment as washers of anything, well, anything physical that is!
Why am I on here? Well, I used to BE HM forces front line aircrew and was pointed here some years ago by a mutual friend.
As to denigrating said aircrew abilities, where did I do that? I spend most of my working days with merchant banks and the likes these days and the abilities of aircrew seem totally irrelevant to what they do. Hence I don't seem to meet any. Not denigrating, just a fact.
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I'm with Pr00ne on this - generally for everybody it is getting increasingly hard to make substantial career changes mid-career. Partly it is due to the increasing use of recruitment agencies - unless your CV matches exactly their brief, you will not even go forward for interview. Partly it is also due to the massive increase in area-specific expertise required to be credible in management roles. A former RAF Sqn Ldr applying for a job running a city department would have no more credibility than an ex-banker applying to run an RAF squadron.
It is also getting harder (and likely to get harder still) for ex military aircrew to move into civilian flying. The company I fly for gets ex-mil CVs all the time - and (not my decision) they go to the bottom of the pile. The recruiters are not interested in how great a pilot you might be or how many military hours you may have - they look for a current type-rating, and hours of EU/OPS flying.
It is also getting harder (and likely to get harder still) for ex military aircrew to move into civilian flying. The company I fly for gets ex-mil CVs all the time - and (not my decision) they go to the bottom of the pile. The recruiters are not interested in how great a pilot you might be or how many military hours you may have - they look for a current type-rating, and hours of EU/OPS flying.
