What will the AFPRB say this year?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Originally Posted by StopStart

The email from the deskenfuhrer this afternoon confirmed that if you're already on PAS then you remain on the original terms. The level 30 cap applies to those who accept a PAS offer after by 1 Apr 10.
Panic over

That will put a big smile back on the fizzogs of the two incumbents in our office that this was so irking as I left work yestertag

[Exiled]

Max P

Thanks! I am not sure that the relevent documentation is available for general consumption but it will, no doubt make it into the JSP in due course. However, as has now been reported, the Deskie has provided the assurance which is sought.

Prof Stude

Your assumption regarding PAS and FRI is, I believe, correct. Not a bad deal for the lucky few.

[Mick Strigg]

The Pension Calculator hasn't been updated with the new rates of pay yet, so the figures that come out will be incorrect anyway.

[StopStart]

That's a shame. The whole idea of the change was to stop the Flt Lt Pilot who does nothing but turn up to fly or sim, but Sweet FA else, getting a bigger pension than all the Sqn Ldrs (except a PAS Pilot) and generally speaking probably the Boss.

Yes, because that's pretty much all we do. Or in fact do some of us work our arses off on the actual business of the RAF (i.e. instruction, flying and ops) rather than chisel our way into Sqn Ldr-dom and then spend our lives either churning out pointless staffwork advertising how jolly clever we are or just clambering in and out of the boss's backside?

I assume from your post that you're perhaps a bitter sqn ldr who a) fears his chiselling has taken him as far up the rank structure as i's going to and b) is surrounded by happy PAS Flt Lts who know they aren't faced with a life of polishing the boss's nipsy to get anywhere in life and who just actually enjoy coming into work to do what the joined the RAF to do i.e. fly 'planes.

If, however, your PAS Flt Lts are just idle scumbags then may I suggest you or the other myriad of Sqn Ldrs cluttering the place up use some of that hard earned rank to get all military on their asses? You could perhaps order them to do some of those desperately important secondary duties you've thought up to advertise yourself?

Author's note: Readers may be under the impression that I have issues with Sqn Ldrs. This isn't entirely the case. I am fortunate to work for (and have worked for) some very capable examples who, if there is any justice in the world, will rise to lofty rank and retire on vast pensions. That said, I also share the station with some incredible examples of how self-service and the heads of others can be used as stepping stones to higher rank.

[MoTiv@tor]

StopStart, would you be prepared to PM me a copy of the email as well? Regards Motiv@te

[formertonkaplum]

Every Year

Every Year I am amazed by the greed and want to swell already plentyfull banks with more cash.

Yes we have all heard how our 'Jedi' masters deserve swollen pensions and massive incentives to stay within the force..... when it is only ever going to be the ones who were staying anyway taking the vast sums.

And at the other end of the feeding trough, the Engineers who maintain and give you the glourious cabs in which to take your Ass's skywards are paid at the exact same levels as those who's job it is to screw up pay (Admin Staff) at every turn. The devaluation of respect to be quantified at the level of a ruler moving scribbly.

How the fat get fat and the shat on sink. So when your boasting about the pension you'll receive that is probably more than my Chiefs salary now, please remember, your not hard done to, you probably have job satisfaction and if you can't show loyalty to those whom you allegedly lead and set the example to, without whinging about your F*cking Fat Over-paid arse's for 5 minutes..... Log in to JPA and Apply for Termination.

[StopStart]

Fish with those chips?
If it's that bad you'll be delighted to hear that the Termination button works for you too.

[left back]

Paymaster

I spoke directly to the guy in London who deals with pay and he confirmed that Flt Lt PAS would be capped at 30. The only exception would be if you were already past that point in which case you would mark time until retirement.

[Bofaboy]

Stop Start,

"The actual business of the RAF -Instruction, Flying, Ops." Have you put that in priority order? I sense that you probably have.

BB

[Stanley Eevil]

LB; I would suggest that your `man in London` may have overlooked the point that most ex Spec Aircrew Flt Lt pilots accepted PAS, (which by its very nature was designed to decouple pay from rank), because of the guaranteed salary increments, year on year, to level 35 thereby providing a continually rising income over and above any annual pay increase granted (or not granted!) by the government. If level 35 was not a possibility, many pilots would probably not have signed up for it in the first place and moved to the airlines. Furthermore, the `cap` at level 30 would involve a change to conditions of service (i.e. the initial `PAS contract` that we signed up to - not to mention the significance of level 35 on the hugely important AFPS75 vs AFPS05 decision) and so `reserved rights` must surely apply otherwise legal challenges would have a very high chance of succeeding.
StopStart - any further thoughts? Clarification of your discussion with the `desky` (P.C.?) would put many minds at rest .....

[cornish-stormrider]

Stopstart - I think what my esteemed bombhead colleague was refering to was that if you continue to employ engineers at f**k-all pay then don't be suprised when they all leave and you get left with the monkeys that would not be fit to sweep my workshop.
I have the distinct misfortune to be saddled with one of this generations yoof and his work ethic is appalling.

If he were in I would not fly his jet!

old adage of pay peanuts get monkeys......

Fly safe won't you now.

Oh, and FWIW I don't begrudge you sky gods your salaries - them watches and shiny crap you lot thrive on must cost a packet. The golf course is thataway ------>

CS

[vecvechookattack]

Furthermore, the `cap` at level 30 would involve a change to conditions of service (i.e. the initial `PAS contract` that we signed up to - not to mention the significance of level 35 on the hugely important AFPS75 vs AFPS05 decision) and so `reserved rights` must surely apply otherwise legal challenges would have a very high chance of succeeding.

Apart from the fact that when you signed then you signed having noticed that you agreed to accept any changes to the conditions of service

[StopStart]

Stanley Eevil - PM sent. Mil email being useless!

"The actual business of the RAF -Instruction, Flying, Ops." Have you put that in priority order? I sense that you probably have.

Bless you for your concern. Not in a priority order, just my programme for the next few weeks. Not a QFI anyway (from your inference) just a humble FI on a front line sqn with an average of 5 months per year for the last 7 years on Ops and most of the rest of the year spent flying on PDT exercises. But feel free to tell me aaaalllll about it. Apologies if I nod off.

[Biggus]

Cornish.....

While I appreciate that "formertonkaplum" and most/many other techies have issues with TG17 being put on the higher pay band (rightly or wrongly) to seem to believe that it was part of some conspiracy by the entire officer corps, including PAS Flt Lt pilots, is quite frankly ridiculous.....

The last few entires on this thread have been mainly about PAS Flt Lt pilots discussing how their pay/pensions/conditions may have been changed by the latest AFPRB report - and seeking clarity. If some of that has included discussing what "former..." considers obscene sums of money, well people need to get over it. Thats what they get paid, and it's less than many mainstream airline pilots....

Oh, and by the way, I'm a level 30 capped PAS nav, not a pilot........

[Stanley Eevil]

StopStart, thanks - very grateful. Further PM sent with a couple of questions.

[Arthur Young]

My first post, so please be gentle with me....

Pay awards always an issue.
My thoughts: PAS already on it bullet proof regardless of what some bloke down the pub says, but going on to it new terms will apply; Engineer pay and conditions a big problem needs to be addressed, RAF helicopter crewmen pay and conditions a really big problem which never seems to be addressed or even acknowledged.

And no, I'm not a crewman but most RAF helicopters need more than just pilots to operate it.

I would like to see the Engineer and Crewman pay etc solved, ideally at the expense of the senior officers.

[left back]

Mr Eevil

I hope you are correct, and I agree with everything you say regards decisions made, but "my man in London" thinks otherwise and unfortunately he implements the policy. It certainly needs to be clarified at the highest levels so that representations can be made to the people in power before April 1st.

[Thobe Gutra]

Mr Evil....you make some excellent points ..especially the effect of the cap on pensions.........it will make a huge difference to final pension.......I signed up to the deal at the time not this cap in increments. Mr LB- good research mate..could the info you got be in error? if not it must be overturned.....I would reach the cap in 2 years ..about the time the airlines and netjets will be recuiting heavily (economics and demographics)....... I am quite keen to stay, but this will make up my mind to go...taking some very sort after skills, experiance and quals with me - hope the man wid da power to review the situation is privy to this thread.

[Diablo Rouge]

I am quite keen to stay, but this will make up my mind to go..

Which may well be exactly the attitude they are looking for. Remember all ground trade PVRs across the board are now 6 months. A sure sign if ever there was one that a downsizing is already under way. Nobody is regarded as being worth saving, although the AH64 chaps probably disagree with that after their AFPRB package this year. You will probably find that you can get out so quickly that somebody else has to turn your IT off for you 'cause you have already left the building.

The million dollar questions are:
What numbers are they downsizing to, and apart from AH crews, is anybody else invaluable. The leaner fitter RAF to which the senior brethren aspire is fundamentalty youth based, not experience based. Young, pliable and fit, otherwise you are disposable. I fear the RAF may adopt the philosophy of the other two services in that a military career is over at age 40.

D_R On PAS and earning more than my bosses boss

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by zedder

That's a shame. The whole idea of the change was to stop the Flt Lt Pilot who does nothing but turn up to fly or sim, but Sweet FA else, getting a bigger pension than all the Sqn Ldrs (except a PAS Pilot) and generally speaking probably the Boss.

Zedder would you believe your comments were made exactly 40 years ago?

The whole point of spec aircrew and PA is to retain competent and professional aircrew over the age of 38 and in the process recognising that they will never get promoted beyond sqn ldr/flt lt.

It started with two officer streams - the direct entry and the Cranwell cadets. The latter were specially selected and trained to become tomorrows leaders. The also rans had the aptitude to be the tip of the spear and were required in large numbers.

The lists were combined as it was recognised that some direct entrants developed better than some Cranwell officers. However to retain the essential operational experience beyond 38 they introduced the spec aircrew cadre.

PA was just an update to that scheme. But to use PA in command authority, commensurate with their experience, but in excess of their rank, is wholly wrong as it starves the 30 year old thrusting sqn ldr from that essential command experience.

That essential experience so that he can learn how not to be a w^nker.

The PA flt lt who does sim and fly is doing exactly what he is employed for. He is available to be messed around by that sqn ldr. He can dispense pearls of wisdom "f*** **f, Sir" and is experience waiting to be used. If you don't use him properly then you have not learnt how to exploit your resources.

They deserve the pay.

PS, I am pleased to see that despite PA my pension is well within sight of theirs. Only problem is keeping it out of sight of the tax man