Nimrod to go by March
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Agree with you on the withdrawl of MR2 5 For 6 Back and it makes some sense, but delaying the operational ISD and indeed the introduction of the MRA4 as a whole highlights that they are very willing to be without MPA. If, after 12 - 24 months nothing major has occurred in homeland waters and therefore there has been no "major" requirement for Nimrod, then it doesn't take a genius to work out what will happen next.
On the positive side, 18 and 27 sqn will have some very highly experienced aircrew to bolster them!
On the positive side, 18 and 27 sqn will have some very highly experienced aircrew to bolster them!
Fat Chris - I agree with your earlier post completely but you missed the point regarding my reference to the Dutch. I wasn't trying to compare empires - just using the example of how history may be repeated. From my understand, during the Dutch version of Planning Rounds and the need to make savings, the removal of the P3 MPA capability was offered up as an option, with the full expectation that no Defence Minister would sign up to it. Unfortunately, the option was taken and the capability has been removed, probably for ever. So ask yourself - are you 100% certain, that could never happen to the Kipper Fleet?
If we prove we can 'make do' without the MR2 capability, which may happen because nothing comes up in the next 2 years that could only have been dealt with by a Nimrod - then in the current climate, that makes the aircraft 'desirable' and not 'essential' and therefore places the future at risk. Yes of course, the capability will be missed and I'm sure Nimrod customers will feed that up the chain. But when it gets to the higher level and the RN is faced with the option of supporting the RAF or risking cuts to Astute, what decision do you think they will make?
Then take a guess of how much support, the Nimrod Force gets at the top table of the RAF? On the basis that AFG is the clear priority, CAS, AT, SH and ISR come far higher than ASW, noting that other assets have succesfully taken on the ISR role previously carried out by the MR2. Remember the decision makers will all be FJ men, fully aware of the great job that Harrier/Tornado has done/is doing in the Stan and fully behind a strong AD capability for the UK. Faced with the requirement to make cuts, what options do you think they will propose if backs are against the wall?
Simplistic - maybe, but remember we are in unchartered territory and the country is facing bankruptcy. Our only hope is that our leadership can see beyond the immediate short term and still plan on a balance of capabilities. Sorry to be so pessimistic but in my 26 years of RAF life, this is the first time that my own personal morale meter has started to dip and I'm really starting to wonder how the future is going to look....
If we prove we can 'make do' without the MR2 capability, which may happen because nothing comes up in the next 2 years that could only have been dealt with by a Nimrod - then in the current climate, that makes the aircraft 'desirable' and not 'essential' and therefore places the future at risk. Yes of course, the capability will be missed and I'm sure Nimrod customers will feed that up the chain. But when it gets to the higher level and the RN is faced with the option of supporting the RAF or risking cuts to Astute, what decision do you think they will make?
Then take a guess of how much support, the Nimrod Force gets at the top table of the RAF? On the basis that AFG is the clear priority, CAS, AT, SH and ISR come far higher than ASW, noting that other assets have succesfully taken on the ISR role previously carried out by the MR2. Remember the decision makers will all be FJ men, fully aware of the great job that Harrier/Tornado has done/is doing in the Stan and fully behind a strong AD capability for the UK. Faced with the requirement to make cuts, what options do you think they will propose if backs are against the wall?
Simplistic - maybe, but remember we are in unchartered territory and the country is facing bankruptcy. Our only hope is that our leadership can see beyond the immediate short term and still plan on a balance of capabilities. Sorry to be so pessimistic but in my 26 years of RAF life, this is the first time that my own personal morale meter has started to dip and I'm really starting to wonder how the future is going to look....
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"...Bob Ainsworth & the one eyed jock maniac should be f***** sideways with an A sized sonobuoy...."
I have to disagree Spock old mate. A 1c sonobuoy would be much more effective - bigger thicker and with more knobbly bits!!
I have to disagree Spock old mate. A 1c sonobuoy would be much more effective - bigger thicker and with more knobbly bits!!
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"...Bob Ainsworth & the one eyed jock maniac should be f***** sideways with an A sized sonobuoy...."
"I have to disagree Spock old mate. A 1c sonobuoy would be much more effective - bigger thicker and with more knobbly bits!!"
Nah, you want to ask the Insties if they still have the dummy sonobuoy used for launcher checks. When I say "used" I mean it was tried once in the mid-eighties but, because it was so heavy, it made a hole in the pan when it dropped out the launcher.
Thereafter it retired and when not on display on the Nav Inst TM's desk it toured the world as a stowaway hidden in kitbags.
Some said it was radioactive.
"I have to disagree Spock old mate. A 1c sonobuoy would be much more effective - bigger thicker and with more knobbly bits!!"
Nah, you want to ask the Insties if they still have the dummy sonobuoy used for launcher checks. When I say "used" I mean it was tried once in the mid-eighties but, because it was so heavy, it made a hole in the pan when it dropped out the launcher.
Thereafter it retired and when not on display on the Nav Inst TM's desk it toured the world as a stowaway hidden in kitbags.
Some said it was radioactive.
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The end is nigh
Spock, we should use an active buoy - boil his bath water!
The hierarchy has never been interested in coastal - hence the complete under-investment in the fleet over the years. Margaret Thatcher was the only politician who ever understood what it was about - but that is another story.
The problem is that we have been flying an aircraft with a 'flawed design' maintained by an organisation that has had its attitude to safety condemned. How can anyone argue that the aircraft has suddenly been magically re-designed and everything that has been deferred over the last 30 years suddenly put right? Someone is trying to kid us!
The hierarchy has never been interested in coastal - hence the complete under-investment in the fleet over the years. Margaret Thatcher was the only politician who ever understood what it was about - but that is another story.
The problem is that we have been flying an aircraft with a 'flawed design' maintained by an organisation that has had its attitude to safety condemned. How can anyone argue that the aircraft has suddenly been magically re-designed and everything that has been deferred over the last 30 years suddenly put right? Someone is trying to kid us!
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Whoever thought up this idea must be a complete nimrod.
For non-kipper mates please see
The Online Slang Dictionary | "N" Words | Page 9
As in:
"Rafair 7654, Boston Centre, say aircraft type"
"Boston, Rafair 7654, Nimrod sir, I spell N-I-M-R-O-D"
"Tee hee tee hee" Sounds of controller rolling on floor laughing.
or
"Norfolk Tower this is Spamjet 56C, what's that thing ahead of us?"
"Spamjet 56C, they call it a NIMRAAAAAD"
"Tee hee heee heee" Sounds of first officer choking on his coffee and doughnut.
Please, please, please Mr Cameron can you save the MRA4 and maybe call it something else like Triton Mk1?
For non-kipper mates please see
The Online Slang Dictionary | "N" Words | Page 9
As in:
"Rafair 7654, Boston Centre, say aircraft type"
"Boston, Rafair 7654, Nimrod sir, I spell N-I-M-R-O-D"
"Tee hee tee hee" Sounds of controller rolling on floor laughing.
or
"Norfolk Tower this is Spamjet 56C, what's that thing ahead of us?"
"Spamjet 56C, they call it a NIMRAAAAAD"
"Tee hee heee heee" Sounds of first officer choking on his coffee and doughnut.
Please, please, please Mr Cameron can you save the MRA4 and maybe call it something else like Triton Mk1?
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Re Part Animal's comments.
Quote. "Remember the decision makers will all be FJ men, fully aware of the great job that Harrier/Tornado has done/is doing in the Stan and fully behind a strong AD capability for the UK. Faced with the requirement to make cuts, what options do you think they will propose if backs are against the wall?" Unquote.
Yeah. And those decision makers have done a great job over the last decade, haven't they.
Quote. "Remember the decision makers will all be FJ men, fully aware of the great job that Harrier/Tornado has done/is doing in the Stan and fully behind a strong AD capability for the UK. Faced with the requirement to make cuts, what options do you think they will propose if backs are against the wall?" Unquote.
Yeah. And those decision makers have done a great job over the last decade, haven't they.
I seem to recall that after XV230 went down the Nimrods had to continue flying because (it was said) the work they were doing in support of the troops was vital. Has that work suddenly stopped being vital? Strong smell of cow pat.
Oxenos (ex Nimrod, but a very long time ago)
Oxenos (ex Nimrod, but a very long time ago)
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ox
The service now has an alternative which is less expensive and more available. The MR2 was only ever a stopgap in the overland surveillance role once AAR was stopped
CS
The service now has an alternative which is less expensive and more available. The MR2 was only ever a stopgap in the overland surveillance role once AAR was stopped
CS
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WTF k.
I thought initially this was a windup, my thoughts go out to the players of ISK. Of all that has been done they treat you like this I am gutted.
For those of you that think you know the solution with hercs etc. you really have no idea at all.
Guess no need to dust off my Fincastle party strides.
Keep safe little fellas
Charlie sends
I thought initially this was a windup, my thoughts go out to the players of ISK. Of all that has been done they treat you like this I am gutted.
For those of you that think you know the solution with hercs etc. you really have no idea at all.
Guess no need to dust off my Fincastle party strides
. Keep safe little fellas
Charlie sends
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What I don't understand is from where all the savings will come?
51 Sqn are keeping going so the old Rod will still need to be serviced, the Sim at ISK will need to keep going, NSG - not sure about what depth work is still needed on the R1, RTI work?
Usually there is economy in scale so you would, broadly, need the same support for the R1s as you would for the remaining 7 MR2s. Or have I got it completely wrong?
Also, what about the aircrew? The MRA4 being delayed, how many will hang about doing sh1tty jobs for 2 years waiting? Once all of the experience is gone then the potency of MRA4 will be somewhat dilluted.
The Herc can plug the SAR gap somewhat but what have we got to plug the ASW gap - if the ministers have been conned into thinking that Herc could do that then they are
. The Merlin could do some but not to the extent that Nimrod can - and, of course, wh have hundredes of spare merlins!??
I fail to see the potential for big savings here Mr Brown but the biggest thing that has pi55ed me off is through out all the talk of cutbacks and savings, our benevolant country can still afford to dole out an increase in benefits when we have defaltion and, moreover, hand over the exact sum 'saved' by defence cuts in extra foreign aid!
Surely, if everyone who works for a living is expected to take it up the ar5e and suffer cutbacks, then the pikey dole grabbing b4st4rds can do the same? Or have Special brew and fags gone up that much that they need more of my hard earned dosh - You might as well just have it all you sponging useless Shame my wife is beyond child bearing age or we could set up a pikey sprog production line and live off the state forever.
As you might have guessed, I think it's time for a cull of the herd!
Rant ends
(But it felt good!)
By the way - Billy Speight - I applaud you Sir!! Those at ISK will know what I mean!
51 Sqn are keeping going so the old Rod will still need to be serviced, the Sim at ISK will need to keep going, NSG - not sure about what depth work is still needed on the R1, RTI work?
Usually there is economy in scale so you would, broadly, need the same support for the R1s as you would for the remaining 7 MR2s. Or have I got it completely wrong?
Also, what about the aircrew? The MRA4 being delayed, how many will hang about doing sh1tty jobs for 2 years waiting? Once all of the experience is gone then the potency of MRA4 will be somewhat dilluted.
The Herc can plug the SAR gap somewhat but what have we got to plug the ASW gap - if the ministers have been conned into thinking that Herc could do that then they are
. The Merlin could do some but not to the extent that Nimrod can - and, of course, wh have hundredes of spare merlins!??I fail to see the potential for big savings here Mr Brown but the biggest thing that has pi55ed me off is through out all the talk of cutbacks and savings, our benevolant country can still afford to dole out an increase in benefits when we have defaltion and, moreover, hand over the exact sum 'saved' by defence cuts in extra foreign aid!
Surely, if everyone who works for a living is expected to take it up the ar5e and suffer cutbacks, then the pikey dole grabbing b4st4rds can do the same? Or have Special brew and fags gone up that much that they need more of my hard earned dosh - You might as well just have it all you sponging useless
Shame my wife is beyond child bearing age or we could set up a pikey sprog production line and live off the state forever.As you might have guessed, I think it's time for a cull of the herd!
Rant ends
(But it felt good!)
By the way - Billy Speight - I applaud you Sir!! Those at ISK will know what I mean!
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The Merlin could do some but not to the extent that Nimrod can - and, of course, wh have hundredes of spare merlins!??
WE don't have hundreds of ASW Merlins spare but we do have about 40 waiting to step in.
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On what evidence would you argue that the MR2 is a better ASW platform than the Merlin?
Oh, and comparing results from exercises and ops
And for VR...
By the way - Billy Speight - I applaud you Sir!!
MadMark!!!
Last edited by Mad_Mark; 19th Dec 2009 at 09:38.
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[QUOTE=vecvechookattack;5390338]On what evidence would you argue that the MR2 is a better ASW platform than the Merlin? QUOTE]
Vec,
That line shows you have poor operational knowledge of ASW events over the last couple of years.
Nough said.
Happy Christmas to everyone on here and at ISK
DA
Vec,
That line shows you have poor operational knowledge of ASW events over the last couple of years.
Nough said.
Happy Christmas to everyone on here and at ISK
DA
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who knows anymore?
Hello all.
Whatever MR2's are serviceable (bearing in mind that, over the last few weeks, there has only been 1 serviceable Nimrod, at any time) will be flown as much as possible until the end of March. Around 200 MR2 workers will be re-deployed shortly after, but those that are already in place to work on the MRA4's will stay.
The MRA4's will keep to their existing delivery schedules - the first one is due to be delivered at the end of February.
BAE will need to restructure (yet again) the support solution (it was heavily restructured only a couple of weeks ago). It was already at bare bones levels though.
They are looking to save around £100 million in the first couple of years.
By the way, the R1's are based in Waddington, not Kinloss.
Whatever MR2's are serviceable (bearing in mind that, over the last few weeks, there has only been 1 serviceable Nimrod, at any time) will be flown as much as possible until the end of March. Around 200 MR2 workers will be re-deployed shortly after, but those that are already in place to work on the MRA4's will stay.
The MRA4's will keep to their existing delivery schedules - the first one is due to be delivered at the end of February.
BAE will need to restructure (yet again) the support solution (it was heavily restructured only a couple of weeks ago). It was already at bare bones levels though.
They are looking to save around £100 million in the first couple of years.
By the way, the R1's are based in Waddington, not Kinloss.
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Looking for P-3s
Hi Tonka Toy,
Try Uncle Sam's parking lot at Davis-Monthan.
Hi fincastle,
My choice of instrument would be the rough end of a pineapple.
Happy and healthy Christmas and New year to all.
Stay lucky
Try Uncle Sam's parking lot at Davis-Monthan.
Hi fincastle,
My choice of instrument would be the rough end of a pineapple.
Happy and healthy Christmas and New year to all.
Stay lucky
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Generally speaking, we don't tend to have mutliple platforms doing the same role - try listing aircraft under headings such as 'air defence fighter, long range bomber, long range transport, battlefield support, MPA' etc and you tend to identify one aircraft for a role, whilst accepting that some others can provide a degree of crossover. (C130 playing Puff the Magic Dragon doesn't count, as ours are C130's not AC130's). An island nation deciding to take a capability gap on its only MPA is obviously nothing less than a gamble, one that will pan out 999/1000 times, but which will be seen in retrospect as an act of suicidal folly the other 1/1000.
The ASW pieces interlock - MPA refines the datum well enough to hand over to a helo, then bogs off because it's really good at covering a large area and is much better spending its time finding all the bad guys while someone else kills the latest one to appear - and when your task group is belting along it takes a hell of a lot of helos to cover the area ahead, the MPA/Helo mix is special, and to remove either is to reduce the effectiveness dramatically.
Luckily we no longer have a navy, more accurately we have a splendid navy but they don't have very much to sail round in any more, so I guess that and the fact that our comissars don't expect any conflict to pop up anyway makes it all peachy. Funny thing is, nobody ever expects any of the wars we get involved in.
I'm emigrating to Luxembourg, where I will whip up nationalistic fervour and then invade the UK. I figure I'll pay less tax in retirement if I conquer the place rather than just try to live in it.
I wonder how they'll explain the RN capability gap when they cancel everything? With global warming (subtract cash from forces, hand over to global warming R us movement) I'd have thought we'd need more MPA and ships, not less....
Dave
The ASW pieces interlock - MPA refines the datum well enough to hand over to a helo, then bogs off because it's really good at covering a large area and is much better spending its time finding all the bad guys while someone else kills the latest one to appear - and when your task group is belting along it takes a hell of a lot of helos to cover the area ahead, the MPA/Helo mix is special, and to remove either is to reduce the effectiveness dramatically.
Luckily we no longer have a navy, more accurately we have a splendid navy but they don't have very much to sail round in any more, so I guess that and the fact that our comissars don't expect any conflict to pop up anyway makes it all peachy. Funny thing is, nobody ever expects any of the wars we get involved in.
I'm emigrating to Luxembourg, where I will whip up nationalistic fervour and then invade the UK. I figure I'll pay less tax in retirement if I conquer the place rather than just try to live in it.
I wonder how they'll explain the RN capability gap when they cancel everything? With global warming (subtract cash from forces, hand over to global warming R us movement) I'd have thought we'd need more MPA and ships, not less....
Dave