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Reds to Go?

Old 15th Dec 2009, 07:23
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Reds to Go?

First off, I have nothing but pride and admiration for the skill and professionalism of our premier aerobatic team. You got me and several thousand other kids into the RAF, my wee boy wants to join you ASAP, bypassing the traditional career path.

I admit it, I'm jealous.

But, let's be critical here, especially as we're in the middle of intensely 'challenging times' and the only things safe for the defence budget are marked 'To Helmand'

1. Do the Reds contribute to the Afghan campaign?
A. No
2. Do the Reds provide any military effect?
A. No

So, will the Reds be disbanded?
A. No

For one simple reason. The Red Arrows are symbolic of modern Britain, all spin and (multi-coloured) smoke and mirrors. Scratch the surface and there's nothing there. They help to create the illusion that all is well with our Armed Forces. There is nothing left - we have no navy to speak of, the air force is completely broken and we have a small fighting force in Afghanistan configured for counter-insurgency.

However, in the eyes of the 'X-Factor / Strictly' British public, disbanding the Reds would be a tangible sign that something is amiss.

So no, the Reds will live to fly another season. I hope they enjoy their tour, I know they will continue to demonstrate the ethos which made the RAF the great organisation it once was. I would just ask that they spare a thought for all those who's careers will perish on the steaming pile of Planning Round 2010.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 07:52
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Just a little bit confused as to the point of your post mate? On a previous post you had a bit of a dig at the 'Reds' hoping they were remembering those on ops whilst impressing the crowds with their display.
As you seem to have been around for over 20 years in the RAF i guess you are aware that all of the team have done their fair share of time in the desert.... and some in more arduous conditions than the nimrod fleet put up with.
I think anyone with half a brain in the current forces is well aware of the cuts on the way (including the Reds) and why they should be pin pointed above others when you admit, they were instrumental in your decision to join up.

I hope the Red Arrows team have a great season and also hope they have front line seats to get back into, when their tours are over.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 08:51
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*carefully looks around for the line attached to the massive chunk of bait*


Windup, surely?
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 09:22
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Not a chance...
I once heard that said about the Berlin Wall; and 3 weeks later history was in the making. Disbanding the Reds could be the PR that the British Public need as a wake up call to were the taxpayers debt is being accumulated. In the sixties aerobatic teams were created and disbanded often, and the loss of skillset (which will always be a valid argument) did not seem to be an issue. There will be a surprising number of the public who couldnt care less about military demo anything, and whilst I personally believe disbanding the Reds would be criminal, they are not immune. It is an interesting debate.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 09:49
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As I have said on another post....it is a disgrace that RAFAT and QCS are held alive whilst the FJ fleet is slashed. Some skewed thinking at the top of the RAF methinks.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 10:22
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Some skewed thinking at the top of the RAF methinks.
You mean those at top THINK! surely not
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 10:24
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I was under the (probably mistaken) impression that the Reds brought more money into UK PLC than it cost to operate them.

Or is that just the party line I have been fed?!
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 10:30
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Bob,

They used the same argument for BRITANNIA but the fact is that any income derived does nothing for UK Defence. The fact is the days of using RAFAT for aircraft sales is over and why should we see real defence assets cut whilst the Reds stay flying - it is particularly galling to see the frontline FJ fleet decimated whilst RAFAT stay aloft. If the rumours are true the RAF will have a deployable strength of about 70 FJ (not total numbers) vs 9 RAFAT.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 10:58
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If you are running a successful and profitable business you can afford to run a publicity machine. BA did this with Concorde in its heyday.

The UK is bankrupt and savings will have to be made. But, an election looms and no Labour politician has the balls to get rid of the Reds. And besides, we've just donated (borrowed) 1.5 billion to fight "climate change". No, the mission must continue.

Just keep digging.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 11:23
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Woh woh woh sweet child of mine ....

As I have said on another post....it is a disgrace that RAFAT and QCS are held alive whilst the FJ fleet is slashed. Some skewed thinking at the top of the RAF methinks.
Didn't QCS (63 Sqn RAF Regt) deploy to both Iraq and Afghanistan, or was that a figmant of my imagination?
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 11:53
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I'm not Military, but I hope you guys won't mind me posting here.

On a slight thread-creep, I was walking around a building site recently, the former RAF staff college at Bracknell. I would guess that HM government earned in excess of 30M for this piece of land, once numerous middle-men, agents, consultants, lawyers and friends had had their cut.

Now, the majority of development sites I seem to work on are former military, (Bracknell, Eastcote, West Drayton), or former Hospitals, or former schools.

My point is this. We are selling off the family silver wholesale, bringing in millions upon millions, yet, we are up to our nads in debt, our entire Navy can now fit in Portsmouth, our Air Force and Army have token numbers, our infrastructure is heading towards meltdown, so what are we going to do when there's no silver left to sell ? Where does all the money go ?

Keep smiling !
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 12:19
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If you are running a successful and profitable business you can afford to run a publicity machine. BA did this with Concorde in its heyday.

And look whats happening to BA 763jock!

Outdated amongst its competitors and nearly bust!
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 13:16
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Hmmm

How many more cuts to the front line jet fleet are we going to have to endure to maintain things like the RAFAT and QCS? It is a disgrace.

"Bismark

By QCS I assume you are referring to 63 Sqn RAF Regt who have just returned from Op HERRICK."


The error of your assertions regarding QCS (63 Sqn RAF Regt) was more than adequately pointed out by Climebear on "another post". Posting the same comments in a different thread is surely the last vestige of the scoundrel....

Now, as for the Reds - that's a different issue.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 13:23
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Split the difference, paint the Grobs???
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 13:40
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Point of Order.
"Reds to Go?" Threads are traditionally brought up in mid-March.

Pah!, Yoof, no respect. Tradition, mumble, grump......
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 13:52
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Gainsey

Go tell em G
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 16:48
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See, a woman is on the team for 5 minutes and look what happens.
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 17:53
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1. Do the Reds contribute to the Afghan campaign?
A. Yes

2. Do the Reds provide any military effect?
A. Yes

So, will the Reds be disbanded?
A. No
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 18:34
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He's right, I saw them at the Bastion air day and the TB were well impresses!!!!!!

HOW??
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Old 15th Dec 2009, 22:28
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I'm amazed these threads are so frequent.

We're trying to save 1.5Bn or something like that. The Reds' own website confirms that their annual cost is 6.3M. That's pennies in the grand scheme of things, and a tiny tiny drop in the ocean compared to what we'll save by binning half the Harrier force and closing Cott.

People seem to think that we should chop the Reds, and that'd save anything else from being sliced. No way, they're simply not expensive enough to save another asset.

If the Reds cost 800M a year to run, fine; but the political backlash from chopping something like the Reds, for a saving of 6.3M?

To put that in perspective, we paid 86M in MP's expenses last year. Chop their expenses, and you could run a dozen aerobatic teams!
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