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Practice interceptions of civil aircraft

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Practice interceptions of civil aircraft

Old 3rd Nov 2009, 15:37
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Practice interceptions of civil aircraft

Hi all,
The paragraphs say, practice interceptions should not be undertaken.
What are the exemptions? Aircraft with no SLF?
Under what circumstances would a practice interception of civil aircraft be possible? Thanks.
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 15:52
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Why would you need to practise with any plane outside the RAF?

For large aircraft interception a C130 would suffice, and for small aircraft a grob tutor would suffice. I dno't see why you'd ever need to practise on a civilian aircraft, unless it's agreed before the flight for a pilot flying from cranwell aviation school etc.
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 16:00
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Agree

That subject comes up quite regularly among airline pilots ;-)
Since 9/11 this is in my opinion no longer possible, unless you don't mind to be on youtube next day. But heard the other day that in France such interceptions still take place after the ok from the airliner pilot is received. But I have my doubts...Thought you guys might know the rules.
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 16:06
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a C130 would suffice
Like we have loads of those available ....
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 16:21
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Since 9/11 this is in my opinion no longer possible
Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s.
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 16:30
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You get my point though Wrathmonk, admittedly the C130 wasn't a great choice, I just happened to be reading about them at the time.
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 16:48
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Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s
I don't think that there can be many ex-Wattisham fighter crews who haven't intercepted the 'Norwich flier' on a few occasions!

I don't think that AirUK ever complained though. But a chum and I were once flying back from Turnhoos to Norwich in an elderly AirUK F27 - only to be intercepted by an F4 from our own squadron.....

Night 'Profit' often jammed the Neatishead Fighter Controller, so a few airliners found themselves being intercepted on such occasions!
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 16:54
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We don't do it at all. The only civvy a/c pinged are the Cobham guys.

We did intercept a few Virgin a/c after 9/11. It was sanctioned by Mr Branson & proved to be a good learning tool. Interestingly, the a/c intercepted had no passengers onboard & were being flow specifically for the training scenario.

It was quite funny watching the F3 do it's best to turn with a 747 at high altitude... Couldn't help but suspect that the Virgin crew knew exactly what they were doing. Probably ex Tonka drivers!!
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 17:19
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"Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s"

To the best of my knowledge, embellished flight plans are still acceptable within ICAO.
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 18:52
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aren't the flights down to MPA in a civi-registered ac? Pretty sure they get a welcoming intercept as they approach the Islands. I've certainly been up close to an a330 down there.
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 18:55
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I intercepted Concorde in the 70s

And the BA 747s enjoyed the protection going into Stanley in the early 80s
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 19:16
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You could always do an intercept on a civvy if you're doing Targets of Opportunity (TOO), just be sure to break off as soon as you VID that its a civvy and not a mil jet!!!

Oddly enough, most of the time I have done this the civvy crew haven't even noticed - too busy looking at their laptops...now that would never happen would it?

Lawmakers seek to ban laptops, other devices in cockpits after airliner incident -- chicagotribune.com

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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 19:22
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Ditto Geehova. Tried for a guns solution on Concorde but one burner didn't light in the turn.

Maybe not quite civvie, but the first Tornado GR formation delivered to Saudi (via noght stop in Akrotiri) came close to being shot down for real by Lightnings on alert in Cyprus against a possible Libyan attack. They apparently had embellish on their flight plan but were in desert camouflage, swing wing and had green markings - and were enjoying trying to avoid the Historic Flight QRA that went up against them. Nobody told QRA it was practise!
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 19:28
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Contact the Jever Steam Laundry for details but in the fifties it was reported that the battle flight intercepted a Russian a/c carrying Kruschev (Armed live Hunters) and brought home cine and also a story went around of a Comet carrying HM being filmed as a "target of opportunity".

Happy days!
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Old 3rd Nov 2009, 20:16
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I am sure someone will quote the exact words, but whilst PIs on civil ac are 'prohibited intercepts', but the more recent phrase included the addition of "... unless part of a pre-briefed exercise".

The change was brought in following the introduction of civil ac for target facilities and EW exercises.

There was always some discussion about what was meant by 'pre-briefed', my personal interpretation (and that generally accepted in the ground at least) was that the intercept had to be arranged before flight.

Embellished status for civil ac is not in itself sufficient to make them suitable targets (in the UK ADR anyway).

I may be a couple of years out of date, so will gladly bow to anyone with more recent info.

STH

Last edited by SirToppamHat; 3rd Nov 2009 at 21:14.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 09:10
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May have been me flying the F27 which incidentally had the handling characteristics of a supermarket trolley - ie a mind of its own. We had no autopilot's in those days - they were removed to save weight and the cost of maintainance. Flying S&L for long periods could be a bore and as most of the controllers we spoke to were Mil and they recognised some of our voices we were frequently "embellished" by Frightenings and F4s.
I remember one occasion returning to Norwich from AMS two F4s (one piloted by an old mate whose name sounded as if he were one of my siblings) sat on my wingtips as I approached Rackheath (OM RW27 NWI) at 224kts (balls out!). As was normal pax were briefed and had noses to the windows. First officer looks up from check list/paperwork etc, spots F4's and says fk me do you think those bs have seen us. F4s depart fowards in full burner circling F27 and climbing rapidly and noisily above us.
Great days - was you one of em Beags
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 09:47
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Geehovah,

"I intercepted Concorde in the 70s"

In what may I ask?

LM
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 09:53
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"battle flight intercepted a Russian a/c carrying Kruschev (Armed live Hunters)"

My Dad was a sumpy on 71 Sqn,Sabres, at the time, a 4 ship landed asked for a very quick TR and launched to intercept Kruschev. Later in the day a note was put up thanking the lads for the quick TRs, note removed shortly after as a potential political storm was brewing!
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 10:00
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LM, The MOD hired Concorde from BAC (IIRC) for a supersonic intercept practice. It flew a circuit around the North Sea at M 2.0 as a target for each fighter wing in turn. It may even have been late 60s as I recall the Notam and exercise instruction but from 1970 I was overseas.

This was also the time of 'big' exercises like Lime Jug, the first Highwood, Bersatu Pardu. We had a budget for proper training.
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Old 4th Nov 2009, 10:03
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Can we still put "Embellish" on the flight plan?

I'd be happy if you guys would like to use us for the practice (Cobham Beech 200 Flight Checker)
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