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Exocet

Old 4th Jul 2001, 01:24
  #21 (permalink)  
Gash Handlin
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Fob,

I take your point about gossip and I certainly didn't mean to appear to be taking sides as my sum total of knowledge comes from about 5 books on the Falklands (mainly on the land conflict) and a few TV progs including Sundays, so I'm in no position to judge.

Battle Of Hastings - now theres no need for a witch hunt everyone knows that was lost coz harold was busy burning his scones on mari-antoinette's bonfire. That must be true coz I saw it in an American documentary
 
Old 4th Jul 2001, 02:16
  #22 (permalink)  
BEagle
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The one that told of Robin Hood and the Sheriff of Northampton, someone who fried duck and how he made Marian whilst waiting for Henry the 6th and his 8 wives to come home from crossing the Alps to duff Hannibal Lectoris??
 
Old 4th Jul 2001, 03:46
  #23 (permalink)  
oldpinger
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Oggin,
At the risk of banging on about something- my great uncle flew AEW in Skyraiders in the 50s on, you guessed it, 849 sqn. Started his career flying Stringbags.....(marginally faster than a Seaking )
Can anyone enlighten me as to why they disbanded this capability with the old Ark? Was it a lack of aircraft to land on the CVS or the old "We won't need that anymore" with the u-can't-bend it Type 42.

The important thing to realise about Anti ship missile defence then and now is, in my opinion there is a big culture of 'stick head in sand and hope they don't shoot one of them at me'. Most of the newest missiles,and the exocet was relatively new back then, are so good at picking out ships and ignoring decoys that given enough missiles you will sink a ship. If you also do the maths (have a look in Janes) how many AA missiles do the Type 42 carry and how do you reload? All you RAFies out there- how many ASMs can the average FGA carry?

In light of this, I can't believe the
W@$#%@s that are criticising the poor blokes who had to do their best a VERY long way from home! Lucky it wasn't on TV over here, brick through the set may have been the result.

- soapbox put away......

edited due smilie failure

[This message has been edited by oldpinger (edited 04 July 2001).]
 
Old 4th Jul 2001, 10:52
  #24 (permalink)  
Flypro
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Oldpinger
I think you will find that the reason the RN lost its carriers and AEW capability was that the RAF convinced the government of the day that they could provide the fleet with air cover anywhere on the planet. Hollow laughs all round!!
 
Old 4th Jul 2001, 21:29
  #25 (permalink)  
Flatus Veteranus
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Here we go again! The dastardly "crabs" moved Australia umpteen degs West into the Indian Ocean, etc etc... Lets get real, huh?

------------------
presto digitate
 
Old 4th Jul 2001, 23:40
  #26 (permalink)  
Mycroft
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Talking Radalt
Was dubious about that myself, as a friend was subsequently (post cease fire but still nervous about possible attack) on a mine hunter searching for UXBs in one of the harbours and when they turned their radar on (same band as Exocet) we treated as hostile, and the ships had not been to a dockyard to have the bulbs painted (it being beyond the average dock yard mateys capabilities to change a bulb)
 
Old 5th Jul 2001, 00:19
  #27 (permalink)  
Gash Handlin
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BEagle and flatus,

Could you provide more info on the documentary that's on at the moment (of course you won't have seen it as it's on ITV which I understand is NOT an officers channel)

I'm particularly interested in the submarine performance of the Vulcan and was aslo wondering what effect the salt water has on the buckets of sunshine?
 
Old 5th Jul 2001, 01:42
  #28 (permalink)  
BEagle
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Shimply shplundid, Moneypenny!

There was never a door into the bomb bay from the flight crew area in the Vulcan - otherwise the aerial shots are quite good!

Incidentally, that Vulcan model was last used on a public rally in London which was trying to preserve the RAF's last flying Vulcan.
 
Old 5th Jul 2001, 08:13
  #29 (permalink)  
oldpinger
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Flatus-

I say hat's off to the crabs of the day for an amazing piece of staff work.
The yanks had loads of carriers and anyone could see they were rather useful for pesky little wars (Vietnam etc) and STILL they managed to convince the Govt that the trusty TSR2-(oops)-F111-(oops)- Vulcan??? could cover the world.

maybe we should have gone back to a box kite towed behind the ship as AEW......
 
Old 5th Jul 2001, 10:29
  #30 (permalink)  
A7E Driver
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<<maybe we should have gone back to a box kite towed behind the ship as AEW......>>

Actually Oldpinger, I'm sure that towing a radar reflective decoy behind the Sheffield would have been more effective than chaff ....


 
Old 5th Jul 2001, 11:52
  #31 (permalink)  
Arkroyal
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As for the binning of AEW when my old namesake went to the razor blade factory....It had been decided that we were purely an anti WP force, and so the crabs could provide AEW and the exocet would always be friendly. We could afford to get rid of Endurance, and show the Argentines how much we valued the FI!

As for the lost (as in unsure of position) SK4. Two DSCs and One DSM would rather indicate a mission success (from the flight crew point of view anyway).

Falklands war...bloody close run thing with the wrong kit too far from home. To start raking it over now is not going to help anyone.
 
Old 5th Jul 2001, 15:22
  #32 (permalink)  
ScopeDope
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So all future conflicts are going to be fought close to home with the right kit ?

I think it is right to study and question these things, after all history, especially miltary history, is there to be learnt from.
 
Old 5th Jul 2001, 22:05
  #33 (permalink)  
Flatus Veteranus
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Ark et al

I was in MOD at the time of the Strike Carrier/F111 controversy, but not in an involved Directorate. My experience at a humble level of the "modus operandi" in the Mad House (if indeed it has one!) is that some wheel on the 6th floor takes a look at his diary and IN basket early on a Friday in the hope of "Foxtrotting Oscar" early to play golf. He finds (panic, Oh Jeese C!) that he has a Defence Council/Cabinet meeting early the following week at which he is expected to deliver a decision/ recommendation on some boring little detail like should we buy another brace of strike carriers (they always come in pairs) or take the seductively cheap option of increasing the buy of land-based aircraft (they can always be quietly cancelled). Let there be written a paper!. On my desk by close of play this pm! By the time this gets down to the coal face (Wg Cdr/Sqn Ldr & equivs) they have had their Friday lunchtime session in the Sherlock Holmes or the Sh*t & Shovel. Working frantically in the days before word processors they put together some thoughts simple enough to get by the airships/seaships on a Friday and attach at Annex a map photocopied from a school atlas. Unfortunately the longitude lines are blurred so they overwrite them - and get it a few tens of degrees wrong. The cockup, rather than conspiracy theory of history strikes again!

This nation should have learned after the Suez fiasco in '57 that we cannot project power globally any more. Governments delivered themselves of a decison in the '60s that we would no longer procure weapons for operations outside the NATO theatre. The implication was that we would not seek to defend outposts like the Falklands unless we built a strategic airfeild there, as recommended by the Shackleton Report. I believe that COPORATE was morally justified, but a complete negation of national defence policy and economically irrational. CAS at the time was thought to have recommended against it, but was overruled by CDS/1st Sea Lord. if all the bombs that the AAF planted in our warships had gone off we would have been in dire trouble. The fact that the Argies could not unerstand the (RAF) textbooks on arming the 1000 lbs that they had bought from ROF could not reasonably have been foreseen by CAS. So his recommendation was professional and correct.

If we really mean to intervene globally, in areas where we might not be afforded land air bases, then there is no alternative to a brace of strike carriers. But if there is a conflict between our "ethical foreign policy" and, for example, paying old folk in UK a liveable OAP, there is no contest at all. The latter would cost about the same amount (10B), I believe, as the carriers.
 

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