Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen,
To those of you who have campaigned endlessly over this matter, I salute you all and offer my heartiest congratulations. I am not a helo' man and have declined from commenting, but the overwhelming support for the two pilots made it abundantly clear early on that all was not as was portrayed in the accident reports conclusions.
Well done to you all. If anyone ever doubted the power and determination of PPrune, then this has shown them the error of their ways.
I'm delighted for the family and friends of the pilots and hopefully many can now put this dreadful accident to rest.
As for Mr W and Mr D, I would hope they would have the courage as EX VSOs to say publicly that they got it wrong, but I somehow doubt that, and therefore I hope that the judicial system has a 'chat' with them both.
Well done everyone once again - result!
To those of you who have campaigned endlessly over this matter, I salute you all and offer my heartiest congratulations. I am not a helo' man and have declined from commenting, but the overwhelming support for the two pilots made it abundantly clear early on that all was not as was portrayed in the accident reports conclusions.
Well done to you all. If anyone ever doubted the power and determination of PPrune, then this has shown them the error of their ways.
I'm delighted for the family and friends of the pilots and hopefully many can now put this dreadful accident to rest.
As for Mr W and Mr D, I would hope they would have the courage as EX VSOs to say publicly that they got it wrong, but I somehow doubt that, and therefore I hope that the judicial system has a 'chat' with them both.
Well done everyone once again - result!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have read this thread on and off and have to say that, although I do not have the knowledge which others on here possess, I'm delighted with the result. It is always far too easy and some would say convenient, to blame deceased pilots as they cannot present their own, first hand, version of events. I hope the families of the pilots receive a fulsome apology and also all the help they will need to come to terms with the years of distress which they have endured.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: preston
Age: 76
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello again JP
I didn't think for one moment it was you. I would expect you to post under you normal pseudonym.
Just a fellow traveller with the firm belief (or arrogance?) to believe that Sir John Day had a better understanding of what was meant by AP3207 Annex G Para 9, than Lord Philip.
He also would have to have a better understanding than the man who wrote it, Air Commodore Derek Hine.
Now that is my definition of "breathtaking arrogance."
I didn't think for one moment it was you. I would expect you to post under you normal pseudonym.
Just a fellow traveller with the firm belief (or arrogance?) to believe that Sir John Day had a better understanding of what was meant by AP3207 Annex G Para 9, than Lord Philip.
He also would have to have a better understanding than the man who wrote it, Air Commodore Derek Hine.
Now that is my definition of "breathtaking arrogance."
I was duty Churchwarden one Sunday at St Boniface, JHQ, when the news of the crash came through. A prayer was said.
In some way, and belatedly, some small part has been answered.
Thank God, and thank the campaigners.
RIP
In some way, and belatedly, some small part has been answered.
Thank God, and thank the campaigners.
RIP
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Exiled in England
Age: 48
Posts: 1,015
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree - time for a lock.
Flt Lt Tapper, Flt Lt Cook, Crew and passengers - stand easy, names cleared. Only you know what happened on that day
The Families can move on and mourn in peace with this injustice laid to rest.
The rest of us can hoist a tall frosty one in memorium (or a malt)
can we please leave the conspiracy theories and opinions now to elsewhere?
Flt Lt Tapper, Flt Lt Cook, Crew and passengers - stand easy, names cleared. Only you know what happened on that day
The Families can move on and mourn in peace with this injustice laid to rest.
The rest of us can hoist a tall frosty one in memorium (or a malt)
can we please leave the conspiracy theories and opinions now to elsewhere?
Distant Voice
Interesting post. Anyone else spot that this proves ACM Alcock, the RAF Chief Engineer, a liar. And also those who briefed Dr Fox given his reply to a question by a Scottish MP. Makes you wonder what else they lied about.
Interesting post. Anyone else spot that this proves ACM Alcock, the RAF Chief Engineer, a liar. And also those who briefed Dr Fox given his reply to a question by a Scottish MP. Makes you wonder what else they lied about.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK Sometimes
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DV and Dervish,
Quite! There are few unexplained aspects to this but I think it best to let things lie for now - until some more suitable time in the future.
Well done to all who have kept the faith and expecially to Brian who often was left to hold the fort in the dark days between Inquiries. Many other people, however, have contributed to the cause of justice - even if it was 16 years in coming. Well done Dr Fox and Lord Philip!
Whether we believe the pilots got wrong or not (I happen not to think that) and whether we believe the cause of the crash was distractions, illusions, nav errors, UFCMs, control jam, AFCS, FADEC, airworthiness or men in dark jump-suits, it is now time to un-pin this thread and let it fall slowly to the bottom of heap. It has achieved its aim and is probably the best example of the power of the blog and internet that I know of.
Rest in Peace the crew and passengers of ZD576.
flipster
Quite! There are few unexplained aspects to this but I think it best to let things lie for now - until some more suitable time in the future.
Well done to all who have kept the faith and expecially to Brian who often was left to hold the fort in the dark days between Inquiries. Many other people, however, have contributed to the cause of justice - even if it was 16 years in coming. Well done Dr Fox and Lord Philip!
Whether we believe the pilots got wrong or not (I happen not to think that) and whether we believe the cause of the crash was distractions, illusions, nav errors, UFCMs, control jam, AFCS, FADEC, airworthiness or men in dark jump-suits, it is now time to un-pin this thread and let it fall slowly to the bottom of heap. It has achieved its aim and is probably the best example of the power of the blog and internet that I know of.
Rest in Peace the crew and passengers of ZD576.
flipster
Here, here, flip! Congratulations to all those who have fought the good fight for 16 years, especially Brian who can at last stop being so irritating! Unpinning this thread will be a truly historic occasion and should be carried out with all the due solemnity and formality appropriate. I'm sure that there is a PPRuNe procedure to cover it, for as flipster says this is a tribute to this forum and to its members. If we had been listened to from the start, much suffering of the families could have been avoided. The pointless obduracy of the RAF leadership over all those years is unforgivable and brings shame to the Service.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: On the keyboard
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chugalug2
Excellent post! Congratulations to all who have worked so hard to keep up the pressure on the politicians - especially you, tucumseh, flipster, Seldomfitforpurpose and John Blakely. All well-informed and articulate. Brains beat bull**** every time!
Well done, all.
Vertico
Well done, all.
Vertico
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dr Fox, Hansard 13.7.11
"Dr Fox: In fairness, the board of inquiry said that the most likely cause of the crash was pilot error, but it did not attribute blame. The air marshals used their experience and intuition to make a judgment based on the board of inquiry’s findings. Lord Philip and his team found that they were not able to do that based on the level of evidence required to attribute negligence in the way that they did."
This is a good summary of a sad tragedy.
This is a good summary of a sad tragedy.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 786
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a positive note for those who would like to develop understanding of the crash, hopefully to contribute one day to a determination of its cause, this achievement of the original raison d'etre for this thread should free up debate for those who were genuinely concerned that too much digging may complicate or even compromise that aim – even if there is to be no longer a “sticky” thread, the topic should continue, perhaps with the same title?
To kick things off, there are some matters arising from what has gone before, to name but a few:
the weather – given that it was predictable with forecasts at that time of day and time of year with a strong onshore wind blowing, that all accounts were consistent with this, and that apparently a video was available showing the localised weather taken only minutes before the crash confirming this expected local weather, why has it not been widely recognised (in inquiries and the media) that they were not in “thick fog” until the last moments, that they would have been able to be aware of the presence of the landmass from a long way off, and that the only problem that it would have presented to them would have been judgement of distance off if for whatever reason they had to approach it very closely;
the classified equipment not hitherto addressed by any inquiry/review whose existence and use had predicted by analysis of the available data with consideration to practical airmanship in advance of its fit being confirmed – after 17 years and being “outed”, the excuse that CPLS cannot be discussed because it was “classified” no longer is acceptable – its use has been shown as a possible cause of this crash consistent with all the known data;
the engine states, rotor RPM, and control positions at the time of impact indicating both meaningful positions and sudden demands consistent with sudden awareness of closure with terrain – this data, objectively analysed, is inconsistent with any perceived possible fault that the airworthiness considerations covered.
Do not be satisfied with just the pilots names being cleared – the original verdict could have been shown to have been baseless years ago had you all been more open and forthcoming contributing to the analysis etc – the data points to a planned approach to a particular point and so you should be concerned with what reason was this for, who would have approved it, etc – even if it was just a case of an exercise gone wrong, whoever was responsible for the concept, planning, and execution should be brought to account.
It should not do that their names were cleared on just a technicality – the verdict of gross negligence was equivalent to their being guilty of manslaughter of their passengers – whoever else stuffed up this exercise by error or malice is surely also guilty of manslaughter - how can this tragedy been signed off while it is probable that they themselves were victims of manslaughter? How can you think that the families have closure?
To kick things off, there are some matters arising from what has gone before, to name but a few:
the weather – given that it was predictable with forecasts at that time of day and time of year with a strong onshore wind blowing, that all accounts were consistent with this, and that apparently a video was available showing the localised weather taken only minutes before the crash confirming this expected local weather, why has it not been widely recognised (in inquiries and the media) that they were not in “thick fog” until the last moments, that they would have been able to be aware of the presence of the landmass from a long way off, and that the only problem that it would have presented to them would have been judgement of distance off if for whatever reason they had to approach it very closely;
the classified equipment not hitherto addressed by any inquiry/review whose existence and use had predicted by analysis of the available data with consideration to practical airmanship in advance of its fit being confirmed – after 17 years and being “outed”, the excuse that CPLS cannot be discussed because it was “classified” no longer is acceptable – its use has been shown as a possible cause of this crash consistent with all the known data;
the engine states, rotor RPM, and control positions at the time of impact indicating both meaningful positions and sudden demands consistent with sudden awareness of closure with terrain – this data, objectively analysed, is inconsistent with any perceived possible fault that the airworthiness considerations covered.
Do not be satisfied with just the pilots names being cleared – the original verdict could have been shown to have been baseless years ago had you all been more open and forthcoming contributing to the analysis etc – the data points to a planned approach to a particular point and so you should be concerned with what reason was this for, who would have approved it, etc – even if it was just a case of an exercise gone wrong, whoever was responsible for the concept, planning, and execution should be brought to account.
It should not do that their names were cleared on just a technicality – the verdict of gross negligence was equivalent to their being guilty of manslaughter of their passengers – whoever else stuffed up this exercise by error or malice is surely also guilty of manslaughter - how can this tragedy been signed off while it is probable that they themselves were victims of manslaughter? How can you think that the families have closure?
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
How can you think that the families have closure?
Not by speculating in the way that only you think we should.
A really irritating PPRuNer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Just popping my head back up above the parapet
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Posting at the end of another long day, my apologies.
I am pleased that the time has come to unstick this thread and that the main objective of the Campaign was achieved. It took a great many people a great deal of time, but it was worth every second.
I would respectfully ask that at the moment, the thread is not locked, but be allowed to gracefully make its way down to pages past.
For those expecting a big farewell speech, I regret there will be none. The Campaign has been conducted in a dignified manner and that is how it will end.
My final post on this thread is to simply say no matter what part you have played in this Campaign, you have contributed to returning the reputations of two fine aviators back to their families and I thank each and every one of you from the bottom of my heart.
Very best wishes,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
I am pleased that the time has come to unstick this thread and that the main objective of the Campaign was achieved. It took a great many people a great deal of time, but it was worth every second.
I would respectfully ask that at the moment, the thread is not locked, but be allowed to gracefully make its way down to pages past.
For those expecting a big farewell speech, I regret there will be none. The Campaign has been conducted in a dignified manner and that is how it will end.
My final post on this thread is to simply say no matter what part you have played in this Campaign, you have contributed to returning the reputations of two fine aviators back to their families and I thank each and every one of you from the bottom of my heart.
Very best wishes,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook