Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)

[ShyTorque]

ZA 721, mechanical failure, easily established as such, no such evidence on the Mull.

No, it was most definitely not easily established in that very disturbing accident. Steve Newman was a colleague of mine and our "Boss", Wg Cdr Malcolm Pledger, was appointed as the President of the BOI. I spoke to him directly about the accident after he returned to UK from the scene of the accident. At the time the BOI team were at a loss and asking for ideas from crews that might be researched by them. In the end, the verdict of the most likely cause took a very long time to reach.

The aircraft (Mk1) already had a very bad reputation with crews at that time but that particular accident was the one which made me, as the father of small children, decide to do whatever I could to avoid a Chinook posting. Thankfully, I managed to do so.

[courtney]

It depends on how evidence is presented and what it sets out to prove, As you continually state there is no evidence except that the aircraft flew into a cliff at high speed in controlled flight. Because we have no flight recorders then the obvious must be discounted in case we upset the relatives. The AM's were not prepared to whitewash, basically they saw no possible explanation for this but for negligence on the part of the pilots. I think this was case, there is no evidence for the aircraft being out of control, it shouldn't have been where it was in those condirions and there are no mechanical issues that would force it on that course and at that speed.

[nice castle]

That Courtney chap has been around for a while, but my, how young his mind seems. Anyway, now's not about picking off scabs, it's inappropriate and churlish.

Congratulations on the good news, the families can take a breather after a long hard fight, which they won.

As for the helicopter, I believe it has cleared its name as well over the last decade or more, in terms of its performance and ability to bring our lads home safe after sustaining battle damage time and time again.

So I'm pleased for the families of those who died, and I hope all who fly the cab in harm's way right now enjoy the professional reward, and come home safely for a few beers, after a job we can all be proud of.

[Tiltthrust]

Courtney, you're either very dim or out to provoke.

[jindabyne]

How awful to see this thread degenerating

[air pig]

Mods, as it not time to lock this thread to stop the drift that has now started.

Regards

Air pig

[ShyTorque]

I agree. The thread, and the campaign have achieved their aim.

Time to close it and for those with a different agenda to begin their own threads.

[air pig]

If the mod's do lock this thread, is it possible to unlock once it to allow one last word be given to Brian as an endpiece.

Regards to all who have fought a seventeen year battle.

Air pig.

[Dengue_Dude]

Well done gentlemen (and ladies where applicable).

For those who are gone, RIP. For those who remain, may this ease the pain just a little.

I can't help feeling that justice has been seen to be done - against all odds.

That's something for the campaigners to feel proud of.

May the 'victory' be dignified and solemn. There are no winners here.

[Poltergeist]

Where is the evidence of controlled flight? again, if there is no data that can not be established fully. Likewise, there is no evidence of negligence.
And in an accident, evidence should not rely on how it is presented. It occurred or it did not or it is not conclusive.

You, me and no one else on this forum knows for certain what happened. We do all know it was a tragic event that has caused grief and pain for many people.

Not all investigations can establish a cause beyond reasonable doubt, sadly this one cannot either.


As for not prepared to Whitewash, they did not, they simply took an opinion and published it as fact without the necessary evidential support.
That must never happen again

[GreenKnight121]

http://www.pprune.org/6569855-post8140.html

Originally Posted by courtney

Chocks, the aircraft was rotated rapidly shortly before impact and struck tail first, perhaps the fadec did this as well?

Are you sure that it was the pilots who caused the aircraft to rotate?

Or that the aircraft had not over-rotated and lost enough lift to no longer be controllable (excessive angle-of-attack)... or that it had NOT been at a higher altitude before this happened?

Like maybe high enough to clear the cliff?

It is very possible that this could have happened...but without a flight recorder, there would be no evidence of those events.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

My own theory is that they had a wake turbulence encounter with the Aurora.

After all, you can't rule it out, can you?

[Old-Duffer]

ZA715

Airborne Aircrew

Your 'unidentified Gurkha soldier' has a name: Sgt Toyabahadur Gurung of 2nd / 2nd Gurkha Rifles - holder of the Prince of Wales' Kukri for his outstanding performance as a soldier

Old Duffer

[dalek]

Courtney.
K52, Cazatou, John Purdey with a new head.
The war is won. Stop biting.
I for one will be contacting my MP and asking that Wratten, Day and fellow travellers be, at least, reprimanded for their persistent attempts to Pervert the Course of Justice over the years.
In the light of the statement by Liam Fox, I will not hold my breath.

Chocks Wahay. Good posts.

[Cows getting bigger]

Does anyone know if the RAF now fit CVR/FDR as standard in all new aircraft? ISTR that almost every BOI report I ever read had this as a recommendation.

Personally, I'm overjoyed for Rick & Jon's families and I don't really care about much of the continued speculation regarding cause. There are many, many smoking holes where cause was never positively determined.

[BEagle]

Anyone who writes comments such as:

(John Day)'s arguments seem well reasoned and logical, after all, the aircraft was flown at high speed into a cliff. It is perhaps understandable, in view of the loss of lives, that he chose to step beyond the confines of the 'rules'.

and

Unfortunately the circumstancial evidence is damming (sic), the board may have been constrained by the rules the senior officers weren't.

or

You may succeed with your obsessional campaign but ultimately the existing judgement on these pilots will be seen as reasonable by their peers, and they themselves may well agree.

would appear to have very unusual belief that Wratten and Day were bound by no rules. Furthermore, courtney, it is you who appears to have an irrational desire to damn the two pilots.

Anyway, justice has now finally been delivered. Your facile "That's as may be, but I know better" comments have no place on this thread.

I note that neither cazatou nor Sir.... 'John Purdey' has deigned to offer a comment on the result.....

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by Beagle

I note that neither cazatou nor Sir.... 'John Purdey' has deigned to offer a comment on the result

- can you be sure?

MODS - I join those asking for an end to this thread. An injustice and incorrect ruling has been overturned. The bereaved are still left with their tragic losses. There is no point in starting it all up again.

For those wanting to let BD 'know' their feelings, use the PM system.

[Bismark]

A very good result for the families, would never happened under the RN system of BOIs...

....time to un-pin this thread and let it work its way down the list.

[The Old Fat One]

....time to un-pin this thread and let it work its way down the list.

Gets my vote too.

There is no need to lock or delete this thread...plenty of ppruners will want to debate the outcome (or lack of) of matters arising...such as the case against the Air Officers and the bigger picture or military airworthiness. Much the same now as the HC thread in fact.

I suspect also that those of the conspiritorial bent will wish to bash their keys venting their ever fertile imaginations.

However, the primary purpose of the thread, and the reason it was made a sticky, has now past. Time to let the law of internet regain control.

Time to unpin.

[John Purdey]

Chinook

Dalek. Your... "K52, Cazatou, John Purdey with a new head."... not me, chief. John Purdey