Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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Thank you, ILS44.
Whilst we may be a little quiet at the moment (Parliamentary recess, catching up on holidays and all else, etc), the Campaign continues.
We will not stop doing what we do until both Rick and Jon's reputations have been rightfully restored.
If you haven't done so already, please visit the Campaign website (see WWW link in my profile) and sign your name to the petition. There are currently 767 names there. I am hoping to get it nearer the 1000 mark if I can.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Whilst we may be a little quiet at the moment (Parliamentary recess, catching up on holidays and all else, etc), the Campaign continues.
We will not stop doing what we do until both Rick and Jon's reputations have been rightfully restored.
If you haven't done so already, please visit the Campaign website (see WWW link in my profile) and sign your name to the petition. There are currently 767 names there. I am hoping to get it nearer the 1000 mark if I can.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Brian
Just received this response from my MP, Mr Alan Reid (Argyll & Bute ((& while I'm out there, Kuwait /Basra etc). I'm a wee bit wary of sharing his genuine sentiments with you on an open forum without his permission but I just thought his moral support and concise view on the verdict is very refreshing.
"""""""Thank you for your letter about EDM 651
I have no hesitation in signing the EDM and supporting the campaign to have the verdict overturned. It was clearly wrong.
If there is anything further that you wish to raise with me, please do not hesitate to get in touch,
Yours sincerely"""""""
Obviously he represents us very well, perhaps I might even vote for him next time
Just received this response from my MP, Mr Alan Reid (Argyll & Bute ((& while I'm out there, Kuwait /Basra etc). I'm a wee bit wary of sharing his genuine sentiments with you on an open forum without his permission but I just thought his moral support and concise view on the verdict is very refreshing.
"""""""Thank you for your letter about EDM 651
I have no hesitation in signing the EDM and supporting the campaign to have the verdict overturned. It was clearly wrong.
If there is anything further that you wish to raise with me, please do not hesitate to get in touch,
Yours sincerely"""""""
Obviously he represents us very well, perhaps I might even vote for him next time
Last edited by Pilgrim101; 18th Sep 2005 at 20:55.
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Pilgrim 101,
thank you for the update and, of course, your support.
Excellent news with regards Mr Reid willing to sign the EDM. Next time you write to him, perhaps direct him to speak personally to James Arbuthnot MP, the Chair of the Campaign Group.
Take care when playing in the sandpit!
Kind regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
thank you for the update and, of course, your support.
Excellent news with regards Mr Reid willing to sign the EDM. Next time you write to him, perhaps direct him to speak personally to James Arbuthnot MP, the Chair of the Campaign Group.
Take care when playing in the sandpit!
Kind regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Anybody narrow down the date that the article to which cazatou refers was published? I'm having difficulties getting a copy from archive.
Perhaps if anyone can recall a bit more of the detail?
Perhaps if anyone can recall a bit more of the detail?
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Hi everyone.
Parliament has now returned to business and that means that MPs are now available to sign the Early Day Motion tabled by Mr Henry Bellingham.
Could I please ask you all again to contact your MP and ask that they add their name to the EDM. It is number 651 of the current session.
Link to EDM web page
I'm pleased to tell you that the EDM is still on the Conservative and Lib Dem approved list - which is great news!
Thank you all, as always for your continued support.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Parliament has now returned to business and that means that MPs are now available to sign the Early Day Motion tabled by Mr Henry Bellingham.
Could I please ask you all again to contact your MP and ask that they add their name to the EDM. It is number 651 of the current session.
Link to EDM web page
I'm pleased to tell you that the EDM is still on the Conservative and Lib Dem approved list - which is great news!
Thank you all, as always for your continued support.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Good to see that my MP (and Prime Minister in waiting!) David Cameron has already signed it - he did so last time as well!
Thanks, David!
Thanks, David!
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Contact an MP
EDM 651
Just an other reminder to people to contact their MPs. They like nothing better than to get letters, e-mails, faxes, phone calls. I have e-mailed 7 MPs within the last hour and already have 2 confirmations that they will sign.
(7 MPs? - Yes my current and previous and those in parts of the country where I have connections.)
JAON
Just an other reminder to people to contact their MPs. They like nothing better than to get letters, e-mails, faxes, phone calls. I have e-mailed 7 MPs within the last hour and already have 2 confirmations that they will sign.
(7 MPs? - Yes my current and previous and those in parts of the country where I have connections.)
JAON
The new MP for the constituency where I live is far more approachable/ contactable than his predecessor. I think the TheyWorkForYou.com website is a fantastic idea - have just put it to good use from here in the land of Sun, Sand and Ramadan. Thanks again Brian & Co - I'm very grateful to you all for your efforts.
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Thud and everyone,
very many thanks, as always, for your support.
Within a few days of Parliament returning, the list of names has jumped to 51!! Excellent news.
Previous EDMs have reached over the hundred, so let's see if we can get this one there too (not, of course, that I'm being ungrateful for the work you have all done so far).
Updates as and when.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
very many thanks, as always, for your support.
Within a few days of Parliament returning, the list of names has jumped to 51!! Excellent news.
Previous EDMs have reached over the hundred, so let's see if we can get this one there too (not, of course, that I'm being ungrateful for the work you have all done so far).
Updates as and when.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Just as a point of interest:
The "Chinook Crash" book, is one of a handfull reviewed on pages 32 and 33 of BALPA's The Log (Oct/Nov 05)
Coincidentally, the reviewer (a gentleman known to me) also appears to be credited with an obituary to Captain John D Cook, some 3 pages later.
The "Chinook Crash" book, is one of a handfull reviewed on pages 32 and 33 of BALPA's The Log (Oct/Nov 05)
Coincidentally, the reviewer (a gentleman known to me) also appears to be credited with an obituary to Captain John D Cook, some 3 pages later.
Robert Walter has now added his name to EDM 651. He also sent me a copy of an e mail from Michael Ancram (19.10.05) which included text from his letter to John Reid.
"Owing to further concerns about the circumstances surrounding the Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash, there have been calls for a further enquiry, but it does appear to me that all available evidence has already been obtained."
"What I believe is needed, is for the existing evidence to be examined by a senior judge with the remit of advising if such evidence is sufficient to sustain a verdict of negligence at the required standard of proof."
"In the light of public interest, I am making this letter available to the press."
Hopefully the MoD cannot respond to that with the usual mantra of "no new evidence"
"Owing to further concerns about the circumstances surrounding the Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash, there have been calls for a further enquiry, but it does appear to me that all available evidence has already been obtained."
"What I believe is needed, is for the existing evidence to be examined by a senior judge with the remit of advising if such evidence is sufficient to sustain a verdict of negligence at the required standard of proof."
"In the light of public interest, I am making this letter available to the press."
Hopefully the MoD cannot respond to that with the usual mantra of "no new evidence"
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Tandemrotor,
Although I haven't seen the book review, I believe it contains the paragraph:
The book outlines the views of a thoughtful, independent, and articulate man with no axe to grind. Mr Campbell inhabits the world that I do - one full of imperfect human beings who do their best and occasionally fail. It isn't a light read, covering as it does the various enquiries in some detail, but the effort is worth it. My advice is simple. If you've made your mind up about this crash and are seeking ammunition to support your view, this book is not for you. If you are interested in the views of an intelligent, articulate and empathetic man who has taken some trouble to research his subject it definitely is.
No one doubts the research undertaken by Mr Campbell. It is, indeed, thoroughly researched (when I asked the question as to how much access Mr Campbell had been given to their files, to assist his research, the MoD refused to answer). The disagreement I have with his findings is that, like the MoD, Mr Campbell promotes speculation and assumption as fact - totally missing the Absolutely No Doubt Whatsoever requirement. My own (untrained) review would be: Well researched book which offers a possible cause to the accident and, as such, undermines the MoD's long standing belief that two highly trained special forces pilots were grossly negligent.
Interestingly, in his obituary to Captain John Cook, the same author writes:
It is a bitter and cruel irony that John's last 10 years were devoted to righting the unjustified stain on his elder son Rick's character by two RAF Air Marshals who over-ruled the Board of Inquiry for the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre, which tragically claimed Rick's life. No-one will ever be certain what happened to that aircraft which is why the current finding cannot go unchallenged and the terrible irony is that recording equipment, if fitted, could have clarified so much. A further tragedy is that this likeable and highly respected man didn't live to see this terrible injustice overturned
Well, that seems to be both sides of the argument covered then!
I have to say that I don't know the author of the review/obituary personally, and have no axe to grind with him. I'm just a little puzzled by his apparent argument for both camps in this ongoing injustice.
If he (or anyone for that matter) reads my review of his review/obituary and takes offence, please let me know and I'll remove it forthwith.
A response to The Log will be submitted in due course.
My best to you all, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Although I haven't seen the book review, I believe it contains the paragraph:
The book outlines the views of a thoughtful, independent, and articulate man with no axe to grind. Mr Campbell inhabits the world that I do - one full of imperfect human beings who do their best and occasionally fail. It isn't a light read, covering as it does the various enquiries in some detail, but the effort is worth it. My advice is simple. If you've made your mind up about this crash and are seeking ammunition to support your view, this book is not for you. If you are interested in the views of an intelligent, articulate and empathetic man who has taken some trouble to research his subject it definitely is.
No one doubts the research undertaken by Mr Campbell. It is, indeed, thoroughly researched (when I asked the question as to how much access Mr Campbell had been given to their files, to assist his research, the MoD refused to answer). The disagreement I have with his findings is that, like the MoD, Mr Campbell promotes speculation and assumption as fact - totally missing the Absolutely No Doubt Whatsoever requirement. My own (untrained) review would be: Well researched book which offers a possible cause to the accident and, as such, undermines the MoD's long standing belief that two highly trained special forces pilots were grossly negligent.
Interestingly, in his obituary to Captain John Cook, the same author writes:
It is a bitter and cruel irony that John's last 10 years were devoted to righting the unjustified stain on his elder son Rick's character by two RAF Air Marshals who over-ruled the Board of Inquiry for the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre, which tragically claimed Rick's life. No-one will ever be certain what happened to that aircraft which is why the current finding cannot go unchallenged and the terrible irony is that recording equipment, if fitted, could have clarified so much. A further tragedy is that this likeable and highly respected man didn't live to see this terrible injustice overturned
Well, that seems to be both sides of the argument covered then!
I have to say that I don't know the author of the review/obituary personally, and have no axe to grind with him. I'm just a little puzzled by his apparent argument for both camps in this ongoing injustice.
If he (or anyone for that matter) reads my review of his review/obituary and takes offence, please let me know and I'll remove it forthwith.
A response to The Log will be submitted in due course.
My best to you all, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Last edited by Brian Dixon; 25th Oct 2005 at 18:46.
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Ken,
thank you very much.
Pulse 1,
thank you, also for your continued support. Very encouraging indeed that Mr Ancram's letter has been copied to the media. This will bring the EDM to their attention and hopefully produce even more attantion to the campaign. The MoD needs constant reminders that we will not be going away in the near future!
I wrote a coouple of letters to Dr Reid upon his taking over as SoS for Defence. His first (personal) response was the same, tired old mantra. When pushed by a second letter from me, I received a three line brush-off from one of Dr Reid's hired pencils!
Best we keep annoying him, eh!
As always, the Campaign is eternally grateful for the support of you all.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Edited to add: Your hard work is paying off. The EDM now stands at 112 signatures. A magnificent effort - thank you all, once again. EDM 651
thank you very much.
Pulse 1,
thank you, also for your continued support. Very encouraging indeed that Mr Ancram's letter has been copied to the media. This will bring the EDM to their attention and hopefully produce even more attantion to the campaign. The MoD needs constant reminders that we will not be going away in the near future!
I wrote a coouple of letters to Dr Reid upon his taking over as SoS for Defence. His first (personal) response was the same, tired old mantra. When pushed by a second letter from me, I received a three line brush-off from one of Dr Reid's hired pencils!
Best we keep annoying him, eh!
As always, the Campaign is eternally grateful for the support of you all.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Edited to add: Your hard work is paying off. The EDM now stands at 112 signatures. A magnificent effort - thank you all, once again. EDM 651
From the press - this.
TORY golden boy David Cameron is among 112 MPs who have now signed a Commons motion calling for a new inquiry into the Chinook helicopter tragedy, on the Mull Of Kintyre.
Mr Cameron, the favourite to become the next Conservative Party leader, has thrown his weight behind demands for Tony Blair to overturn verdicts of "gross negligence" against the two pilots involved in the crash.
The motion has gained support from across the political spectrum, from Labour left-wingers like Clare Short and Chris Mullin to Tories like Anne Widdecombe and Oliver Letwin.
The DUP's entire Westminster team has also signed the motion, as has the sole Ulster Unionist MP, Lady Sylvia Hermon and SDLP leader, Mark Durkan.
The development comes after Conservative MP Henry Bellingham claimed new RAF rules on fatal accidents, mean that if a similar crash happened today, the pilots would not be blamed.
In light of the rule changes, Mr Bellingham put forward the motion calling on the Ministry of Defence to re-open its inquiry into the Chinook crash, which claimed the lives of many of Ulster's top terrorism experts.
Twenty-nine people, including senior MI5 and RUC officers, were killed when the aircraft crashed on June 2, 1994 - the RAF's worst peacetime disaster.
The senior members of the intelligence community were travelling from RAF Aldergrove to a security conference, at Fort George, near Inverness.
A 1995 RAF Board of Inquiry report blamed the crash on "gross negligence" by the pilots, Flight Lieutenants Richard Cook and Jonathan Tapper.
But, an all-party House of Lords select committee unanimously concluded, in February, 2002, that the MoD's finding of "gross negligence" was not justified.
Mr Bellingham, who represents some of the families of those who died in the tragedy, told Sunday Life: "The RAF's rules on fatal accidents have now changed, and the Chinook pilots would never have been blamed for the crash, if they had been in place a decade ago.
"The MoD has already made its findings, but there's no reason why they can't re-investigate the crash in light of these new rules.
"The families of the pilots will never believe that they caused the crash, and they have been given some hope now with these changes.
"I'm delighted the campaign is now gaining momentum and pleased so many MPs, who sit on opposite sides of the house, now want the MoD to re-investigate the tragedy."
TORY golden boy David Cameron is among 112 MPs who have now signed a Commons motion calling for a new inquiry into the Chinook helicopter tragedy, on the Mull Of Kintyre.
Mr Cameron, the favourite to become the next Conservative Party leader, has thrown his weight behind demands for Tony Blair to overturn verdicts of "gross negligence" against the two pilots involved in the crash.
The motion has gained support from across the political spectrum, from Labour left-wingers like Clare Short and Chris Mullin to Tories like Anne Widdecombe and Oliver Letwin.
The DUP's entire Westminster team has also signed the motion, as has the sole Ulster Unionist MP, Lady Sylvia Hermon and SDLP leader, Mark Durkan.
The development comes after Conservative MP Henry Bellingham claimed new RAF rules on fatal accidents, mean that if a similar crash happened today, the pilots would not be blamed.
In light of the rule changes, Mr Bellingham put forward the motion calling on the Ministry of Defence to re-open its inquiry into the Chinook crash, which claimed the lives of many of Ulster's top terrorism experts.
Twenty-nine people, including senior MI5 and RUC officers, were killed when the aircraft crashed on June 2, 1994 - the RAF's worst peacetime disaster.
The senior members of the intelligence community were travelling from RAF Aldergrove to a security conference, at Fort George, near Inverness.
A 1995 RAF Board of Inquiry report blamed the crash on "gross negligence" by the pilots, Flight Lieutenants Richard Cook and Jonathan Tapper.
But, an all-party House of Lords select committee unanimously concluded, in February, 2002, that the MoD's finding of "gross negligence" was not justified.
Mr Bellingham, who represents some of the families of those who died in the tragedy, told Sunday Life: "The RAF's rules on fatal accidents have now changed, and the Chinook pilots would never have been blamed for the crash, if they had been in place a decade ago.
"The MoD has already made its findings, but there's no reason why they can't re-investigate the crash in light of these new rules.
"The families of the pilots will never believe that they caused the crash, and they have been given some hope now with these changes.
"I'm delighted the campaign is now gaining momentum and pleased so many MPs, who sit on opposite sides of the house, now want the MoD to re-investigate the tragedy."
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Brian, I have now written to our Prime Minister asking him to re-open the inquiry. I know its not much, but it is all that I can do.
One feels so inadequate when things like this happen....Ken
One feels so inadequate when things like this happen....Ken
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WEBF,
many thanks for the link. Reassuring to see that both the candidates are staunch supporters of the Campaign. Puzzled by his "Campaign is gaining momentum" comment though. I thought I'd reached a constant with regards being irritating! Obviously, I need to work harder!
Ken,
you, and all our supporters are far from inadequate. Without you all, the Campaign would have been sunk long ago. Thank you for all that you do. It is a big deal writing to Mr Bliar as it reminds him that we haven't gone away. You won't get a personal reply, but that doesn't matter. The fact that the Campaign presents itself to him, yet again, is very important.
Updates as and when.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
many thanks for the link. Reassuring to see that both the candidates are staunch supporters of the Campaign. Puzzled by his "Campaign is gaining momentum" comment though. I thought I'd reached a constant with regards being irritating! Obviously, I need to work harder!
Ken,
you, and all our supporters are far from inadequate. Without you all, the Campaign would have been sunk long ago. Thank you for all that you do. It is a big deal writing to Mr Bliar as it reminds him that we haven't gone away. You won't get a personal reply, but that doesn't matter. The fact that the Campaign presents itself to him, yet again, is very important.
Updates as and when.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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CRUISE CLIMB
This is one of the most significant aspects of this incident and I believe an important indicator of what the crew was doing.
It was established that the a/c had been in cruise climb in the latter part of its approach to the Mull – it was a rate of climb that used the excess power available without requiring the cruising speed to be reduced – that is, apart from increasing altitude, the a/c continued on the same route plan.
The AVMs cited it as an inappropriate rate of climb in the circumstances – as indeed it was to clear the high ground never mind achieve the minimum safe altitude HAD THEY BEEN INTENDING TO CROSS THAT HIGH GROUND. In fact, if they had been intending to cross the headland and did not want to slow down (therefore using cruise climb) they would have had to have selected it many miles before they did and therefore while they were evidently not having any problems (well before they changed waypoints on the SuperTans for example) and well outside the range of nav error even with the SuperTANS.
If you really want to keep up with the following argument you should get hold of the Ordnance Survey 1:50 000 for South Kintyre and draw on lines for the a/c hdg and waypoint A.
Let us assume for a moment that THEY WERE GOING TO TURN UP THE COAST (as did so many helicopters crossing there) – check where waypoint A is on the map (yep, right on the shore near the lighthouse). You can see it is not much of a turn to the left that they would have had to make and they could have continued along the shoreline quite happily halfway up between sea level and the cloud base – the mist very close by to the right but clear to the left, ahead and directly below. SO WHY CLIMB AT ALL?
Continuing with this simple assumption (turning left up the coast) and adding the assumption that nothing mechanical went wrong we are left with the conclusion that they simply started that turn too late – let us say, that for whatever reason at this stage of this argument, they thought that they were a bit further away – lets say ½ to 1 mile.
Note that the a/c’s line of approach to waypoint A can be projected to the aerodrome at Macrihanish.
Had they been maintaining that cruise climb from that bit further out, by the time that they reached the (actual geographical) position of waypoint A they could have been about 1000 ft – or, say, just below the cloud base. If you do a transection from waypoint A at that height you will notice that the highest ground is close to A such that they could have had (radio) line of site to the aerodrome and used the MAC TACAN (ie DME) – and the a/c’s TACAN CU was set appropriately for this (Ch 107).
BUT WHAT IS THE USE OF SUCH A FIX THAT THEY COULD ONLY HAVE GOT WHEN THEY GOT THERE? Well, obviously it would not have been a factor in getting them there, but supposing they were tasked to check out some other system deployed near waypoint A while they were passing – they may not have been able to see the ground team (the mist being on the ground just inshore) and so the evaluation would not have been a satisfactory exercise or they may have had some misgivings about the range to go (it was after all very close to high ground) – being in line (as near as makes no significant difference in range measurement) with the MAC TACAN/DME would have allowed a good comparison.
This is one of the most significant aspects of this incident and I believe an important indicator of what the crew was doing.
It was established that the a/c had been in cruise climb in the latter part of its approach to the Mull – it was a rate of climb that used the excess power available without requiring the cruising speed to be reduced – that is, apart from increasing altitude, the a/c continued on the same route plan.
The AVMs cited it as an inappropriate rate of climb in the circumstances – as indeed it was to clear the high ground never mind achieve the minimum safe altitude HAD THEY BEEN INTENDING TO CROSS THAT HIGH GROUND. In fact, if they had been intending to cross the headland and did not want to slow down (therefore using cruise climb) they would have had to have selected it many miles before they did and therefore while they were evidently not having any problems (well before they changed waypoints on the SuperTans for example) and well outside the range of nav error even with the SuperTANS.
If you really want to keep up with the following argument you should get hold of the Ordnance Survey 1:50 000 for South Kintyre and draw on lines for the a/c hdg and waypoint A.
Let us assume for a moment that THEY WERE GOING TO TURN UP THE COAST (as did so many helicopters crossing there) – check where waypoint A is on the map (yep, right on the shore near the lighthouse). You can see it is not much of a turn to the left that they would have had to make and they could have continued along the shoreline quite happily halfway up between sea level and the cloud base – the mist very close by to the right but clear to the left, ahead and directly below. SO WHY CLIMB AT ALL?
Continuing with this simple assumption (turning left up the coast) and adding the assumption that nothing mechanical went wrong we are left with the conclusion that they simply started that turn too late – let us say, that for whatever reason at this stage of this argument, they thought that they were a bit further away – lets say ½ to 1 mile.
Note that the a/c’s line of approach to waypoint A can be projected to the aerodrome at Macrihanish.
Had they been maintaining that cruise climb from that bit further out, by the time that they reached the (actual geographical) position of waypoint A they could have been about 1000 ft – or, say, just below the cloud base. If you do a transection from waypoint A at that height you will notice that the highest ground is close to A such that they could have had (radio) line of site to the aerodrome and used the MAC TACAN (ie DME) – and the a/c’s TACAN CU was set appropriately for this (Ch 107).
BUT WHAT IS THE USE OF SUCH A FIX THAT THEY COULD ONLY HAVE GOT WHEN THEY GOT THERE? Well, obviously it would not have been a factor in getting them there, but supposing they were tasked to check out some other system deployed near waypoint A while they were passing – they may not have been able to see the ground team (the mist being on the ground just inshore) and so the evaluation would not have been a satisfactory exercise or they may have had some misgivings about the range to go (it was after all very close to high ground) – being in line (as near as makes no significant difference in range measurement) with the MAC TACAN/DME would have allowed a good comparison.
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Walter Kennedy
Sorry for the lateness of this reply, I've only just seen your post which says
That is total nonsense. I seen the radar recording, I videotaped it for the BOI, there was no radar track. I dunno who dreamt up the thought that the aircraft had even the remotest possibility of being seen on radar in its position at the height it was at. As I previously stated the nearest radars were on the island of Tiree and on the mainland at Lowther Hill. Both a considerable distance from the crash site and those radars do not look down towards the ground. Not to mention the effects of terrain masking.
Whoever wrote the article in the newspaper was being more than a little economical with the truth.
Please feel free to PM me if you wish to check on my identity and the veracity of the information I've posted in this forum.
BD
A controller who had seen the recordings, and requested his identity not be revealed, said: 'The Chinook looks like it went more or less straight into the hillside. There was no distress signal. It all points toward some sort of navigational error. The pilot must have misjudged his position. He only needed to be half a mile to one side.'
Whoever wrote the article in the newspaper was being more than a little economical with the truth.
Please feel free to PM me if you wish to check on my identity and the veracity of the information I've posted in this forum.
BD