Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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I agree. An excellent article.
I am aware that the Chair of the Mull of Kintyre Group, James Arbuthnot MP had been speaking to Mr Major recently, so my thanks to him for any 'clarification of points' he may have made.
I wonder if Mr Major recalls the initial briefing he received?
Thanks also to WWW for posting the link to the article.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
I am aware that the Chair of the Mull of Kintyre Group, James Arbuthnot MP had been speaking to Mr Major recently, so my thanks to him for any 'clarification of points' he may have made.
I wonder if Mr Major recalls the initial briefing he received?
Thanks also to WWW for posting the link to the article.
My best, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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This welcome intervention by a former PM may be even more significant than many of us realise. My memory of the occasion is hazy, but I think it was a chance remark by another former PM, Harold Wilson, many years after the event, which led to James Thain being cleared of blame for the Ambassador accident at Munich in the 1950s.
Sadly, it came too late for Capt Thain, who died a broken man, but it may have set a valuable precedent, and it can never be too late for those whom death has denied the opportunity to speak in their own defence.
Sadly, it came too late for Capt Thain, who died a broken man, but it may have set a valuable precedent, and it can never be too late for those whom death has denied the opportunity to speak in their own defence.
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Shy Torque
You and I are not at odds here at all. This was not a route where there could conceivably have been a standard flight plan. It would not have been a standard destination.
The idea of this being a "milk run" is a non starter.
This does not detract fom the arguement as to whether the crew that had NOT planned the sortie were the best qualified crew to carry it out.
You and I are not at odds here at all. This was not a route where there could conceivably have been a standard flight plan. It would not have been a standard destination.
The idea of this being a "milk run" is a non starter.
This does not detract fom the arguement as to whether the crew that had NOT planned the sortie were the best qualified crew to carry it out.
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10th Anniversary Westminster wreath-laying
Just to let everyone know...
On Tuesday 8th June, at 14.00, there will be a wreath-laying ceremony beside the Innocent Victims Plaque outside the front of Westminster Abbey, in memorium to all 29 people who died in the crash of ZD576.
If anyone would like to come and share a few moments to remember the dead, they would be most welcome. The ceremony will last about 10 minutes, and is meant for those of us who cannot get to the Mull or to Winchfield in Hampshire on the 2nd June.
Hope to see some of you there!
On Tuesday 8th June, at 14.00, there will be a wreath-laying ceremony beside the Innocent Victims Plaque outside the front of Westminster Abbey, in memorium to all 29 people who died in the crash of ZD576.
If anyone would like to come and share a few moments to remember the dead, they would be most welcome. The ceremony will last about 10 minutes, and is meant for those of us who cannot get to the Mull or to Winchfield in Hampshire on the 2nd June.
Hope to see some of you there!
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Hi, thank you Janet.
Such a posting reinforces to all, what a truly tragic day the 2nd June 1994, was to everyone with any connection to those events. I hope you are well supported.
I saw the Channel 4 news item with John Major this evening, and was struck by his candour. I am sure that all would want to see justice done, and the truth revealed. Perhaps the clearing of the names of the two pilots may be the first step on a long road to discover that 'truth!'
Thoughts to all on that difficult day.
"We owe justice to the dead, I am not persuaded they have had it!" ..... Rt Hon. John Major MP, Prime Minister of the day.
How long must this injustice continue?
Such a posting reinforces to all, what a truly tragic day the 2nd June 1994, was to everyone with any connection to those events. I hope you are well supported.
I saw the Channel 4 news item with John Major this evening, and was struck by his candour. I am sure that all would want to see justice done, and the truth revealed. Perhaps the clearing of the names of the two pilots may be the first step on a long road to discover that 'truth!'
Thoughts to all on that difficult day.
"We owe justice to the dead, I am not persuaded they have had it!" ..... Rt Hon. John Major MP, Prime Minister of the day.
How long must this injustice continue?
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Chinook
Roghead. Your recent post was very interesting. Did your relative have anything to say about the visibility and cloud conditions on the top of those hills at the time of the tragedy? Others have said they were in deep clag; the lighthouse keeper said that visibility was around 20 yards. John Purdey
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It may be of interest to note that on Tuesday, the General Assembly of The Church of Scotland has noted under 'continuing work'
Note the tenth anniversary of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre, welcome the planned attendance of the Moderator and the Church and Nation Convenor at a service to commemorate the event, re-iterate the pastoral concern of the Church for the families of the victims, and renew the call to the Ministry of Defence to reconsider the judgement of "gross negligence" on the pilots of the aircraft.
http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/w...lypapers4b.pdf page 94 para 6 refers
Note the tenth anniversary of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre, welcome the planned attendance of the Moderator and the Church and Nation Convenor at a service to commemorate the event, re-iterate the pastoral concern of the Church for the families of the victims, and renew the call to the Ministry of Defence to reconsider the judgement of "gross negligence" on the pilots of the aircraft.
http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/w...lypapers4b.pdf page 94 para 6 refers
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Chinook
Brian Dixon
Had a reply today from my MP in response to my request that he sign EDM 371. He said that, as an Opposition Whip, he was only allowed to sign EDMs on the approved Conservative Party list.
I've therefore e-mailed Michael Howard with a reasoned request for him to follow the lead of Sir Malcolm Rifkind and John Major by adding EDM 371 to the approved list before 2nd June.
Could I suggest that other PPruNers also e-mail Michael Howard, so that he can't claim to be unaware of either the FACTS or the depth of feeling on this topic? All power to your elbow!
Had a reply today from my MP in response to my request that he sign EDM 371. He said that, as an Opposition Whip, he was only allowed to sign EDMs on the approved Conservative Party list.
I've therefore e-mailed Michael Howard with a reasoned request for him to follow the lead of Sir Malcolm Rifkind and John Major by adding EDM 371 to the approved list before 2nd June.
Could I suggest that other PPruNers also e-mail Michael Howard, so that he can't claim to be unaware of either the FACTS or the depth of feeling on this topic? All power to your elbow!
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This subject has just been discussed in PMQ's today. I didn't hear all of it, but I'm sure that Tony Blair said that he would talk to interested parties with regard to the decisions made by the previous Government.
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Vertico,
very many thanks for your support. I can tell you that Mr Howard has already had a letter from me, following the latest statement from John Major. He is aware of the concerns surrounding the verdict and is looking into the matter. That said, the more mail he receives on the subject will reinforce just how many people don't agree with the MoD or the two reviewing officers.
Maxflyer,
James Arbuthnot put a question to Mr Blair during PMQs, and Mr Blair has agreed to meet a delegation from the Campaign Group. I don't have the full question, or reply available at the moment, but will post once I do.
Thanks to Mr Arbuthnot, and congratulations to him for catching the Speaker's eye!
10th anniversary just a week away. Hope to see some of you at a memorial service.
As always, my thanks to everyone for your support.
Regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
very many thanks for your support. I can tell you that Mr Howard has already had a letter from me, following the latest statement from John Major. He is aware of the concerns surrounding the verdict and is looking into the matter. That said, the more mail he receives on the subject will reinforce just how many people don't agree with the MoD or the two reviewing officers.
Maxflyer,
James Arbuthnot put a question to Mr Blair during PMQs, and Mr Blair has agreed to meet a delegation from the Campaign Group. I don't have the full question, or reply available at the moment, but will post once I do.
Thanks to Mr Arbuthnot, and congratulations to him for catching the Speaker's eye!
10th anniversary just a week away. Hope to see some of you at a memorial service.
As always, my thanks to everyone for your support.
Regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
A really irritating PPRuNer
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From the Press Association:
BLAIR TO MEET CHINOOK CAMPAIGN MPs
By Joe Churcher, Chief Parliamentary Reporter, PA News
Prime Minister Tony Blair today agreed to meet MPs campaigning to clear the names of the pilots of an RAF Chinook helicopter which crashed, killing top counter-terrorism experts. But despite John Major - who occupied 10 Downing Street at the time - joining calls for the negligence verdict to be overturned, Mr Blair said he could make no promises.
Mr Blair said he was prepared to meet an all-party group and "look at it in the light of what has been said by the previous Prime Minister. But I give no guarantees that we will change that particular decision. There was a decision taken at the time that was then endorsed by this Government as well.
However, I understand the very strong feeling there is, not least in respect of the families of the pilots concerned, and I am very happy to meet an all-party group. But that has to be done without any prior commitment or guarantee as to what the outcome would be.''
All 29 passengers and crew died in the accident over the Mull of Kintyre ten years ago. An RAF board of inquiry concluded that the pilots, Flight Lieutenants Jonathan Tapper and Richard Cook, were guilty of gross negligence in crashing the helicopter in thick cloud cover. It ruled that the helicopter was flying too fast and too low when the pilots attempted to take emergency action to avoid a steep hillside.
Last month, Mr Major wrote in a newspaper article that "no evidence existed that either pilot - both of whom died in the crash - was negligent''.
His comments came after Sir Malcolm Rifkind, Mr Major's defence secretary at the time, also called for the verdict to be set aside.
The RAF judgment has been the only official verdict into the accident, although a number of inquiries - including reviews by the Commons Defence Committee and a House of Lords special select committee - have disagreed with the ruling.
A 1996 fatal accident inquiry held at the Sheriff Court in Paisley also concluded that it was not possible to be certain of the cause of the crash.
The helicopter was flying from RAF Aldergrove in Ulster to a security conference and passengers included a senior MI5 officer and leading Special Branch officers.
Mr Blair had been pressed at question time by Tory James Arbuthnot (Hampshire NE), who said a meeting should be held to "bring fairness and a conclusion to this matter''.
End
Regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
BLAIR TO MEET CHINOOK CAMPAIGN MPs
By Joe Churcher, Chief Parliamentary Reporter, PA News
Prime Minister Tony Blair today agreed to meet MPs campaigning to clear the names of the pilots of an RAF Chinook helicopter which crashed, killing top counter-terrorism experts. But despite John Major - who occupied 10 Downing Street at the time - joining calls for the negligence verdict to be overturned, Mr Blair said he could make no promises.
Mr Blair said he was prepared to meet an all-party group and "look at it in the light of what has been said by the previous Prime Minister. But I give no guarantees that we will change that particular decision. There was a decision taken at the time that was then endorsed by this Government as well.
However, I understand the very strong feeling there is, not least in respect of the families of the pilots concerned, and I am very happy to meet an all-party group. But that has to be done without any prior commitment or guarantee as to what the outcome would be.''
All 29 passengers and crew died in the accident over the Mull of Kintyre ten years ago. An RAF board of inquiry concluded that the pilots, Flight Lieutenants Jonathan Tapper and Richard Cook, were guilty of gross negligence in crashing the helicopter in thick cloud cover. It ruled that the helicopter was flying too fast and too low when the pilots attempted to take emergency action to avoid a steep hillside.
Last month, Mr Major wrote in a newspaper article that "no evidence existed that either pilot - both of whom died in the crash - was negligent''.
His comments came after Sir Malcolm Rifkind, Mr Major's defence secretary at the time, also called for the verdict to be set aside.
The RAF judgment has been the only official verdict into the accident, although a number of inquiries - including reviews by the Commons Defence Committee and a House of Lords special select committee - have disagreed with the ruling.
A 1996 fatal accident inquiry held at the Sheriff Court in Paisley also concluded that it was not possible to be certain of the cause of the crash.
The helicopter was flying from RAF Aldergrove in Ulster to a security conference and passengers included a senior MI5 officer and leading Special Branch officers.
Mr Blair had been pressed at question time by Tory James Arbuthnot (Hampshire NE), who said a meeting should be held to "bring fairness and a conclusion to this matter''.
End
Regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
An e mail to Michael Howard got an immediate response from his office which included the following:
"Now that the Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary and the Procurement Minister at the time have all accepted that there was a miscarriage of justice and called for the pilots to be cleared, we believe it is appropriate that the Ministry of Defence should give the pilots the benefit of the doubt and clear their names."
It doesn't say that he will allow support EDM 371 as requested though.
"Now that the Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary and the Procurement Minister at the time have all accepted that there was a miscarriage of justice and called for the pilots to be cleared, we believe it is appropriate that the Ministry of Defence should give the pilots the benefit of the doubt and clear their names."
It doesn't say that he will allow support EDM 371 as requested though.
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EDM 371
Brian,
Thank you for your kind comments.
Michael Howard's office replied promptly to my message, also saying "Now that the Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary and the Procurement Minister at the time have all accepted that there was a miscarriage of justice and called for the pilots to be cleared, we believe it is appropriate that the Ministry of Defence should give the pilots the benefit of the doubt and clear their names".
I've replied asking if this means that Mr Howard, my MP and others will now sign EDM 371?!!!
In the light of Tony Blair's answer in PMQs today, it looks like we're getting somewhere! Let's keep up the pressure and ALL ask Mr Howard and our own MPs to sign, as visible evidence of the (entirely justified) strength of feeling behind this campaign.
Thank you for your kind comments.
Michael Howard's office replied promptly to my message, also saying "Now that the Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary and the Procurement Minister at the time have all accepted that there was a miscarriage of justice and called for the pilots to be cleared, we believe it is appropriate that the Ministry of Defence should give the pilots the benefit of the doubt and clear their names".
I've replied asking if this means that Mr Howard, my MP and others will now sign EDM 371?!!!
In the light of Tony Blair's answer in PMQs today, it looks like we're getting somewhere! Let's keep up the pressure and ALL ask Mr Howard and our own MPs to sign, as visible evidence of the (entirely justified) strength of feeling behind this campaign.
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EDM 371
Brian,
Further to my message above, I have now received the following from Michael Howard's office in reply to my suggestion that I hoped he and my MP would now be signing the EDM:
"Yes you can assume they will be signing the Motion."
So, it's now evidently on the "approved list" for Conservative MPs. Can I suggest all those PPRuNers who have previously been rebuffed now contact their MPs again?
An irresistible tide seems to be moving our way!
Further to my message above, I have now received the following from Michael Howard's office in reply to my suggestion that I hoped he and my MP would now be signing the EDM:
"Yes you can assume they will be signing the Motion."
So, it's now evidently on the "approved list" for Conservative MPs. Can I suggest all those PPRuNers who have previously been rebuffed now contact their MPs again?
An irresistible tide seems to be moving our way!
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Vertico,
well done and thank you for your tenacity! Good luck with your own MP.
For those wishing to read Mr Arbuthnot's question to the Prime Minister yesterday, Click here
It will be interesting to see how soon Mr Blair will see the delegation, and also how long he will take to respond once they have been seen. (I wonder if the reply will be, as usual, just before a recess of Parliament).
As always,
my best to you all.
Regards.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
well done and thank you for your tenacity! Good luck with your own MP.
For those wishing to read Mr Arbuthnot's question to the Prime Minister yesterday, Click here
It will be interesting to see how soon Mr Blair will see the delegation, and also how long he will take to respond once they have been seen. (I wonder if the reply will be, as usual, just before a recess of Parliament).
As always,
my best to you all.
Regards.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Don't want to sound like a damp squib, but we are entering critical times for the campaign, and for the two young men for whom we wish to see justice restored.
Anybody who has an interest in this case needs to pull out all the stops NOW!
NOW!
If we fumble this, we may not get another chance of correcting this searing injustice for a very considerable time.
Attend the memorial services if you POSSIBLY can. It is CRUCIAL they are well supported. ALL those who perished 10 years ago deserve that. Their families deserve it!
Flt Lts John Tapper, and Rick Cook can't speak for themselves. They are relying on you and I!
Do EVERYTHING you can do, whatever it is.
It's the 10th anniversary, and we just went to the 'nuclear' option!
Anybody who has an interest in this case needs to pull out all the stops NOW!
NOW!
If we fumble this, we may not get another chance of correcting this searing injustice for a very considerable time.
Attend the memorial services if you POSSIBLY can. It is CRUCIAL they are well supported. ALL those who perished 10 years ago deserve that. Their families deserve it!
Flt Lts John Tapper, and Rick Cook can't speak for themselves. They are relying on you and I!
Do EVERYTHING you can do, whatever it is.
It's the 10th anniversary, and we just went to the 'nuclear' option!
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FYI - an article, "A slur on the pilots" by Omar Malik in this week's Spectator reiterates the affair. The full text is available at http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.p...-05-29&id=4660 (free registration required): the conclusion bears repeating.
"The RAF BoI was a military tribunal run by amateurs both in accident investigation and in law. Its findings have been rejected by professionals, by a Scottish sheriff, by the public accounts committee and unanimously by the eminent select committee of the House of Lords, whose cross-examination totally destroyed the evidence of the two reviewing officers. However, the select committee failed to understand that what was needed was not a lordly tut-tut, but red blood — lots of it — on the carpet. Only a tabloid feeding frenzy coming their way secures the immediate attention of the Establishment.
This continued injustice is a failure of competence. It is a failure of truth and decency. All of which we have become resigned to with this government. But we won’t put up with it in the RAF."
R
"The RAF BoI was a military tribunal run by amateurs both in accident investigation and in law. Its findings have been rejected by professionals, by a Scottish sheriff, by the public accounts committee and unanimously by the eminent select committee of the House of Lords, whose cross-examination totally destroyed the evidence of the two reviewing officers. However, the select committee failed to understand that what was needed was not a lordly tut-tut, but red blood — lots of it — on the carpet. Only a tabloid feeding frenzy coming their way secures the immediate attention of the Establishment.
This continued injustice is a failure of competence. It is a failure of truth and decency. All of which we have become resigned to with this government. But we won’t put up with it in the RAF."
R
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A slur on the pilots!
The following from The Spectator article appears to raise some new and valid points.
"The legality of its verdict could be challenged on several different grounds. The first, Lord Ackner has told the Lords, is ex debito justitiae, in the interests of justice. A second is the total failure of the reviewing officers to substantiate the required level of proof (‘absolutely no doubt whatsoever’). A third is the possibility that the reviewing officers acted ultra vires, beyond their powers. Queen’s Regulation QR 1271 provides that ‘each transmitting authority is to examine the proceedings and record thereon an opinion upon the matters investigated’ (QR 1271(6), AL3/Jun 01, emphasis added). The RAF Directorate of Legal Services has been unable to cite the express authority of the reviewing officers to alter or interfere with the findings. Evidently none exists. This raises the interesting possibility that decades of RAF boards of inquiry have been improperly conducted."
Where does this statement now leave Messrs Bill Wrotten and Peep O' Day?
It must also make it considerably more difficult for Tony Blair to ignore the injustice of their findings.
"The legality of its verdict could be challenged on several different grounds. The first, Lord Ackner has told the Lords, is ex debito justitiae, in the interests of justice. A second is the total failure of the reviewing officers to substantiate the required level of proof (‘absolutely no doubt whatsoever’). A third is the possibility that the reviewing officers acted ultra vires, beyond their powers. Queen’s Regulation QR 1271 provides that ‘each transmitting authority is to examine the proceedings and record thereon an opinion upon the matters investigated’ (QR 1271(6), AL3/Jun 01, emphasis added). The RAF Directorate of Legal Services has been unable to cite the express authority of the reviewing officers to alter or interfere with the findings. Evidently none exists. This raises the interesting possibility that decades of RAF boards of inquiry have been improperly conducted."
Where does this statement now leave Messrs Bill Wrotten and Peep O' Day?
It must also make it considerably more difficult for Tony Blair to ignore the injustice of their findings.