Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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Right done.
Case closed.
Move along.
'Tandemrotor' was born in the 'dark' years. The 'lonely' days. His solemn debt, promised in life, is paid. He will now be laid to rest. To sink to the bottom with this thread, like a burial at sea. Never ever forgetting his dearest friend.
From the bottom of my heart, thank you to all our supporters.
Goodbye.
Case closed.
Move along.
'Tandemrotor' was born in the 'dark' years. The 'lonely' days. His solemn debt, promised in life, is paid. He will now be laid to rest. To sink to the bottom with this thread, like a burial at sea. Never ever forgetting his dearest friend.
From the bottom of my heart, thank you to all our supporters.
Goodbye.
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Thank you Brian and team. A job well done.
Thank you John Purdey and Cazatou, and forces of the Dark Side. Without your interventions I think I, and others, might have lost focus.
Not quite your intention, but you kept the thread ticking over nicely.
Tucumseh, you and others in your long efforts to obtain the truth, have uncovered lies and deceit at the highest levels within the Service.
If you wish to take the matter further on a different thread, at a later date, you can count on my unwavering support.
To the crew and passengers on that fateful day. Rest in Peace.
Thank you John Purdey and Cazatou, and forces of the Dark Side. Without your interventions I think I, and others, might have lost focus.
Not quite your intention, but you kept the thread ticking over nicely.
Tucumseh, you and others in your long efforts to obtain the truth, have uncovered lies and deceit at the highest levels within the Service.
If you wish to take the matter further on a different thread, at a later date, you can count on my unwavering support.
To the crew and passengers on that fateful day. Rest in Peace.
Gentleman Aviator
Well done Brian. Whatever are anyone's personal views/theories/desires now take a very distant second place to the fact that the families seem satisfied and have got some closure.
As a late comer to this thread may I offer my heartiest congratulations to all involved.
My thoughts are particularly with those who fought the good fight but succumbed before it was won. I think of Mr John Cook and Mrs Hazel Tapper. I hope I have those names right. They will rest easier now.
It is right to let this thread fade away, but there are many questions remaining as to the conduct of MoD which must be pursued vigorously.
To this end our local rag (For Argyll The For Argyll Team | For Argyll) has continued its campaign and has some very good contributions on various threads. But I found the following summary very good, addressing the direction from Dr Fox that that the verdict be set aside, as opposed to reopening the Board of Inquiry (as Graydon stated must happen when interviewed last Friday).
Good questions that get to the root of the case. I wonder if, in another time and place, the campaigners might say what new evidence they submitted that prompted this sudden about turn?
Well done indeed.
My thoughts are particularly with those who fought the good fight but succumbed before it was won. I think of Mr John Cook and Mrs Hazel Tapper. I hope I have those names right. They will rest easier now.
It is right to let this thread fade away, but there are many questions remaining as to the conduct of MoD which must be pursued vigorously.
To this end our local rag (For Argyll The For Argyll Team | For Argyll) has continued its campaign and has some very good contributions on various threads. But I found the following summary very good, addressing the direction from Dr Fox that that the verdict be set aside, as opposed to reopening the Board of Inquiry (as Graydon stated must happen when interviewed last Friday).
Lord Philip has simply repeated what we saw at the Fatal Accident, House of Commons and House of Lords inquiries/debates. And to a lesser extent the BoI. He has examined the legal test of “beyond any doubt whatsoever” and MoD have come up short. By a long way.
What is different this time is not the outcome of the inquiry, but the fact that MoD have rolled over, allowing Dr Fox to take a stand. Where are the threats to resign this time? One must ask WHY? WHAT is different?
The answer, very clearly, is that the call for “new” evidence was answered.
What is different this time is not the outcome of the inquiry, but the fact that MoD have rolled over, allowing Dr Fox to take a stand. Where are the threats to resign this time? One must ask WHY? WHAT is different?
The answer, very clearly, is that the call for “new” evidence was answered.
Good questions that get to the root of the case. I wonder if, in another time and place, the campaigners might say what new evidence they submitted that prompted this sudden about turn?
Well done indeed.
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The answer, very clearly, is that the call for “new” evidence was answered.
I agree with the points that Walter makes, and MOD ppruners should understand that the airworthiness issue will not go away, until all those who failed to act on CHART and NART are named and held accountable.
DV
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I don't care about a witchhunt, I am just glad that sense has prevailed. I was particulary happy that Jon's call about not being happy with using the aircraft has been emphasised. The blank sheets in the handling notes was criminal too.
There is one thing that I hope is addressed.......... This must NEVER be allowed to happen again. NEVER. Then there will be closure for me.
There is one thing that I hope is addressed.......... This must NEVER be allowed to happen again. NEVER. Then there will be closure for me.
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Just a very quick message of congratulations to you Brian and to all those who maintained their belief in Justice for the two pilots. After the Lords enquiry and the subsequent disgraceful vote in the HoL, I almost despaired that I would see a successful outcome; this latest ruling has been one of the happiest days of my life!
This thread has taught me many lessons. Among them are the following:
- don't go out of the country on 10 days leave in a place where there's no internet access just as the most significant campaign to have ever affected colleagues, acquaintances and good friends comes to an end.
- how the 'ignore' function works on PPRuNe (what a brilliant idea) when it comes to post-writers who wilfully ignore the point of the campaign.
- how, having been involved in the intro-to-service of 2 aircraft types covered by the same 'airworthiness' team (Lynx Mk7 and Chinook Mk2), I now realise that my trust in senior officials was seriously misplaced. I was particularly saddened to see Lord Gilbert's contribution in the HoL.
- that injustice can be overcome, and that some (sadly, not all) of the surviving families of the deceased can see reputations rightfully restored.
and most importantly to me:
- that someone who I first met when he was 'only' the Flight Medic during the first Gulf Unpleasantness turned out to be the most diligent, determined and effective campaigner I'm ever likely to know. Brian, you have my utmost respect and gratitude.
- don't go out of the country on 10 days leave in a place where there's no internet access just as the most significant campaign to have ever affected colleagues, acquaintances and good friends comes to an end.
- how the 'ignore' function works on PPRuNe (what a brilliant idea) when it comes to post-writers who wilfully ignore the point of the campaign.
- how, having been involved in the intro-to-service of 2 aircraft types covered by the same 'airworthiness' team (Lynx Mk7 and Chinook Mk2), I now realise that my trust in senior officials was seriously misplaced. I was particularly saddened to see Lord Gilbert's contribution in the HoL.
- that injustice can be overcome, and that some (sadly, not all) of the surviving families of the deceased can see reputations rightfully restored.
and most importantly to me:
- that someone who I first met when he was 'only' the Flight Medic during the first Gulf Unpleasantness turned out to be the most diligent, determined and effective campaigner I'm ever likely to know. Brian, you have my utmost respect and gratitude.
Avoid imitations
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and most importantly to me:
- that someone who I first met when he was 'only' the Flight Medic during the first Gulf Unpleasantness turned out to be the most diligent, determined and effective campaigner I'm ever likely to know. Brian, you have my utmost respect and gratitude.
- that someone who I first met when he was 'only' the Flight Medic during the first Gulf Unpleasantness turned out to be the most diligent, determined and effective campaigner I'm ever likely to know. Brian, you have my utmost respect and gratitude.
Seconded!
Cool Mod
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Brian, et al. I recall the day at the HoL inquiry when Day put his points across - not very well - and with some pomposity.
I came out thinking that there might be signs that it was all over. It wasn't but by God it is now. Whatever doubts may remain in the minds of some it is now a time to let this story peter out with the likes of comments now being made. It is the longest running thread of all time on PPRuNe and for me I am happy that I have been involved in it, albeit in a miniscule way compared to the hard work started by Brian. The hard work and interest was to clear the pilots names. That has now been done.
Now, I have excluded WK from ANY further posts on this thread. Something I have wanted to do for a long time but since we had to maintain PPRuNe's rights to allow posters to post providing they didn't cross our boundaries the bullet had to be bitten. However, now that he wants to continue the thread:
The line is drawn and he is banned from the thread. If he is tempted to start another on the same subject, I will ban that too.
All those who battled so hard for so long, you can stand proud.
I came out thinking that there might be signs that it was all over. It wasn't but by God it is now. Whatever doubts may remain in the minds of some it is now a time to let this story peter out with the likes of comments now being made. It is the longest running thread of all time on PPRuNe and for me I am happy that I have been involved in it, albeit in a miniscule way compared to the hard work started by Brian. The hard work and interest was to clear the pilots names. That has now been done.
Now, I have excluded WK from ANY further posts on this thread. Something I have wanted to do for a long time but since we had to maintain PPRuNe's rights to allow posters to post providing they didn't cross our boundaries the bullet had to be bitten. However, now that he wants to continue the thread:
the topic should continue, perhaps with the same title?
All those who battled so hard for so long, you can stand proud.
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Bravo PPP
Ho Ho Ho!
In fairness to WK, his tenacity was as admirable as anyone's - it was just that his absolute blinkeredness to look facts in the face and his inability to see another point of view was as bad as that of the Air Marshals.
Also, WK was not the worst 'conspiracy theorist' I came across - there was another who postulated that a USN SEAL was aboard the Chinook from the start, took out a pistol and shot everyone (including the crew) then jumped out of the doors and parachuted to safety just before the crash!!! Wotaplonker, I think his name was!
On a more pragmatic note, I have thanked a number of people privately, including Brian, but I forgot to thank all those who never gave up the fight - here on PPrune and also behind the scenes - who know who you are!
Thanks too to all at PPrune Towers who have kept this forum going as a sticky and helped moderate the posts when required - quite outstanding!
Everyone has played his or her part (even Caz and JP and other apologists) but the rule of democracy and common-sense has prevailed and we can feel justly proud that we all ensured that was so.
Sadly however, I suspect we have not heard the last of the AMs on this (if Lord Giblet and Graydon are anything to go by) but I think Dr Fox's comments about drawing a line under this were directed specifically at them.
John Cook was right - there is no expiry date for justice - and while Jon and Rick have had theirs, certain senior officers - whose behaviour has been totally unacceptable, some would say criminal - have so far escaped any form of justice. Yes, two of them (D&W) were publically humiliated but a whole host of others didn't even get a mention.
Flipster
Ho Ho Ho!
In fairness to WK, his tenacity was as admirable as anyone's - it was just that his absolute blinkeredness to look facts in the face and his inability to see another point of view was as bad as that of the Air Marshals.
Also, WK was not the worst 'conspiracy theorist' I came across - there was another who postulated that a USN SEAL was aboard the Chinook from the start, took out a pistol and shot everyone (including the crew) then jumped out of the doors and parachuted to safety just before the crash!!! Wotaplonker, I think his name was!
On a more pragmatic note, I have thanked a number of people privately, including Brian, but I forgot to thank all those who never gave up the fight - here on PPrune and also behind the scenes - who know who you are!
Thanks too to all at PPrune Towers who have kept this forum going as a sticky and helped moderate the posts when required - quite outstanding!
Everyone has played his or her part (even Caz and JP and other apologists) but the rule of democracy and common-sense has prevailed and we can feel justly proud that we all ensured that was so.
Sadly however, I suspect we have not heard the last of the AMs on this (if Lord Giblet and Graydon are anything to go by) but I think Dr Fox's comments about drawing a line under this were directed specifically at them.
John Cook was right - there is no expiry date for justice - and while Jon and Rick have had theirs, certain senior officers - whose behaviour has been totally unacceptable, some would say criminal - have so far escaped any form of justice. Yes, two of them (D&W) were publically humiliated but a whole host of others didn't even get a mention.
Flipster
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A well-fought campaign and justice done at last.
Congratulations and respect to everyone involved.
flipster
True.
The public will see through the British establishment's attempt to limit the damage to Day and Wratten's reputations by saying that they didn't understand the meaning of “Only in cases where there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever should deceased aircrew be found negligent” and wonder which word they didn't understand.
B.
Congratulations and respect to everyone involved.
flipster
Yes, two of them (D&W) were publically humiliated
The public will see through the British establishment's attempt to limit the damage to Day and Wratten's reputations by saying that they didn't understand the meaning of “Only in cases where there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever should deceased aircrew be found negligent” and wonder which word they didn't understand.
B.
In his 30 November 2000 interview with Paxman*, BB stated:
However, Fox now says that it was 'poor legal advice' which led to the flawed finding.
So, BB, which was it? 'Irrefutable evidence' or 'Poor legal advice'?
Why was Fox so keen to find this wriggle room for Wratten and Day? And why has their silence following this decision been so deafening? I guess all the journos were too busy with Murdoch's dirt to bother doorstopping BB for a response?
The media dropped the whole thing after 1 day. 17 years to overthrow a miscarriage of justice and yet the media only found time to report it for one day.....
*see BBC News | NEWSNIGHT | Chinook transcript for the full transcript.
But a judgement has to be made, and my colleagues and I reached the judgement we did in the light of what we felt to be irrefutable evidence, not opinion, evidence.
So, BB, which was it? 'Irrefutable evidence' or 'Poor legal advice'?
Why was Fox so keen to find this wriggle room for Wratten and Day? And why has their silence following this decision been so deafening? I guess all the journos were too busy with Murdoch's dirt to bother doorstopping BB for a response?
The media dropped the whole thing after 1 day. 17 years to overthrow a miscarriage of justice and yet the media only found time to report it for one day.....
*see BBC News | NEWSNIGHT | Chinook transcript for the full transcript.
Last edited by BEagle; 16th Jul 2011 at 11:44. Reason: Clarification
Cool Mod
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Wow! Wratten has proved once and for all that he was embedded in a determination that he was right and no matter what non-evidence was available IT was wrong too. It is clear that he would, at any cost, protect his own rotten neck. What an extraordinary man. He also clearly shown he was not fit for purpose - only just discovered after all this time. So when can we expect to hear from Day?
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So when can we expect to hear from Day?
That's what the other guy should have done.
Why was Fox so keen to find this wriggle room for Wratten and Day?
The report this week left the top guys with wriggle room.
Who chose the judicial inquiry team?
B.
Last edited by Bronx; 16th Jul 2011 at 11:40.
In case there's any confusion, I've edited my earlier post to make it clear that the interview Paxman gave BB was actually on 30 November 2000.
Nevertheless, a leopard doesn't change its spots.
Nevertheless, a leopard doesn't change its spots.
May I say how happy it makes me to see this thread unstuck?
May I also say that watching Liam Fox make his statement brought a tear to the eye - as did Brian's post
Thank you Brian for your immense dignity.
airsound
May I also say that watching Liam Fox make his statement brought a tear to the eye - as did Brian's post
For those expecting a big farewell speech, I regret there will be none. The Campaign has been conducted in a dignified manner and that is how it will end.
My final post on this thread is to simply say no matter what part you have played in this Campaign, you have contributed to returning the reputations of two fine aviators back to their families and I thank each and every one of you from the bottom of my heart.
Very best wishes,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
My final post on this thread is to simply say no matter what part you have played in this Campaign, you have contributed to returning the reputations of two fine aviators back to their families and I thank each and every one of you from the bottom of my heart.
Very best wishes,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
airsound
Beagle:
I rather doubt if this bit of the media is likely to drop it, or fade away as Bronx suggests. I commend the article and the subsequent comments, and recommend "watching this space":
Argyll News: 1994 Kintyre Chinook crash pilots cleared – now the real gross negligence must be identified | For Argyll
The media dropped the whole thing after 1 day. 17 years to overthrow a miscarriage of justice and yet the media only found time to report it for one day....
Argyll News: 1994 Kintyre Chinook crash pilots cleared – now the real gross negligence must be identified | For Argyll