Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
Hi Brian.
I have again written to my MP Jane Kennedy, thanking her for her reply, which I suspect is the syock answer. I have suggested that she speaks to Lord O'Neil and to peruse the website.
Keep on going, failure is not an option.
Kind regards
Air pig.
I have again written to my MP Jane Kennedy, thanking her for her reply, which I suspect is the syock answer. I have suggested that she speaks to Lord O'Neil and to peruse the website.
Keep on going, failure is not an option.
Kind regards
Air pig.
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Jayteeto,
Your post #2424,
"The crew ate choccie bars while they went through FADEC emergency drills in the crewroom"
I'm impressed that anyone could be eating "choccie bars" so soon after eating a "Full English Breakfast" in the Sgt's Mess - who, as you are doubtless aware, get larger portions than either the Officers or the Airmen!!
You do not, however, address the more important point: why did Tapper go to Met alone? HQSTC ASI's - ALL flight deck crew, other than Air Eng, go to Met Briefing - period!!
I must confess, however, that recent posts seem to reveal that a large portion of Aircrew Operating from Aldergrove seem to be totally unaware that the Airfield had a "Met Office". In the 25+ years that I operated into & out of that Airfield I never once failed to find it!!
PS Those 25+ years were ALL in the period of "Civil Unrest".
Your post #2424,
"The crew ate choccie bars while they went through FADEC emergency drills in the crewroom"
I'm impressed that anyone could be eating "choccie bars" so soon after eating a "Full English Breakfast" in the Sgt's Mess - who, as you are doubtless aware, get larger portions than either the Officers or the Airmen!!
You do not, however, address the more important point: why did Tapper go to Met alone? HQSTC ASI's - ALL flight deck crew, other than Air Eng, go to Met Briefing - period!!
I must confess, however, that recent posts seem to reveal that a large portion of Aircrew Operating from Aldergrove seem to be totally unaware that the Airfield had a "Met Office". In the 25+ years that I operated into & out of that Airfield I never once failed to find it!!
PS Those 25+ years were ALL in the period of "Civil Unrest".
Just a numbered other
caz,
Your posts simply reinforce your total lack of understanding of how SH works.
There is no met briefing to attend, the ops are 24 hours and you self brief at the crewroom or ops room.
I worked at Aldergrove for over two years, and have no idea where the met office was.
I fed myself from the fridge in the crewroom, and scrounged food from army units all over the province.
I almost never went to breakfast in the mess, as I was either at work, or asleeep during its opening hours.
You say:
That is an insult, which you should withdraw.
SH and VIP fixed wing ops are chalk and cheese. As are assumptions and fact.
Your posts simply reinforce your total lack of understanding of how SH works.
There is no met briefing to attend, the ops are 24 hours and you self brief at the crewroom or ops room.
I worked at Aldergrove for over two years, and have no idea where the met office was.
I fed myself from the fridge in the crewroom, and scrounged food from army units all over the province.
I almost never went to breakfast in the mess, as I was either at work, or asleeep during its opening hours.
You say:
but I should have realised that SH crews are made of sterner stuff and that such namby-pamby ideas do not apply to them.
SH and VIP fixed wing ops are chalk and cheese. As are assumptions and fact.
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cazatou (K52)
Thank you for your pm:
Your certainty that the captain did not have breakfast is offensive, and if I may say so, disgusting. It cannot be supported by the available evidence, and the individual concerned is unable to defend himself.
Your insistence on continuing with your assertion says more about you than about him.
It was of course also considered, and dealt with by the BOI. It is a trivial distraction, but represents the fact that the case of negligence is NOT SUPPORTED BY FACT, TO THE STANDARD REQUIRED
You are clutching at straws my friend.
Thank you for your pm:
Your Post 2425.
OK , I stand to be corrected.
Exactly where did Flt Lt Tapper have Breakfast that morning?
We know where the Co-Pilot and ALM's had breakfast _ so please let us into the secret.
After all; no- one told the BOI -did they?
PS. A choccie bar in the crewroom does not count.
OK , I stand to be corrected.
Exactly where did Flt Lt Tapper have Breakfast that morning?
We know where the Co-Pilot and ALM's had breakfast _ so please let us into the secret.
After all; no- one told the BOI -did they?
PS. A choccie bar in the crewroom does not count.
Your insistence on continuing with your assertion says more about you than about him.
It was of course also considered, and dealt with by the BOI. It is a trivial distraction, but represents the fact that the case of negligence is NOT SUPPORTED BY FACT, TO THE STANDARD REQUIRED
You are clutching at straws my friend.
The straws clutched at by our francophile ex-corgi carrier to substantiate his private agenda are almost as bizarre as those of Weird Wally and his little green Seals with their wacky wirelesses.
Please let's avoid such trivial distractions from deflecting the main thrust of this thread.
Thank you
Please let's avoid such trivial distractions from deflecting the main thrust of this thread.
Thank you
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You guys will never get the slippery Cat to admit he is wrong, in fact when asked anything that could throw any shadow of doubt over his assertions he simply fails to reply.
I will ask him again to state where in the order book he quotes does it say WHERE BREAKFAST IS TO TAKEN AND WHAT BREAKFAST IS TO CONSIST OFF? I shall of course not be holding my breath as I wait for his answer as their simply is no answer.
Despite all the good information that all the experainced SH aviators have given him with regards to met at Aldergrove he still insists he is right even though he freely admits he has not one iota of SH experiance to back him up. Some would simply ignore the man as a fool but if like me you believe his protestations have something of an establishment sound to them then we must continue to refute his allegations in the strongest terms.
Cat I humbly await for you to honestly and truthfully answer the question I have posed in para 2 of this post and ask for you to explain how so many vastly experainced SH folks are wrong with regards to your MET scenario.
Off out for a ruby with Mrs L and will check if the establishment lackey has replied when I get in
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I will ask him again to state where in the order book he quotes does it say WHERE BREAKFAST IS TO TAKEN AND WHAT BREAKFAST IS TO CONSIST OFF? I shall of course not be holding my breath as I wait for his answer as their simply is no answer.
Despite all the good information that all the experainced SH aviators have given him with regards to met at Aldergrove he still insists he is right even though he freely admits he has not one iota of SH experiance to back him up. Some would simply ignore the man as a fool but if like me you believe his protestations have something of an establishment sound to them then we must continue to refute his allegations in the strongest terms.
Cat I humbly await for you to honestly and truthfully answer the question I have posed in para 2 of this post and ask for you to explain how so many vastly experainced SH folks are wrong with regards to your MET scenario.
Off out for a ruby with Mrs L and will check if the establishment lackey has replied when I get in
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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ABIW,
Hope you weren't driving!!
You are missing the point - everyone else on the crew complied with the requirement.
It was only the Captain who failed to comply; which then brings us to the next point which is that ALL Flight Deck crew (except Air Engineers) attend Met Brief. Well, how many did?
Then, because of time constraints, it was the ALM's from the other crew who had to supervise Baggage loading and Passenger Briefing for the Flight. I infer no blame whatsoever to the ALM's who were only doing their best to assist the Crew doing the Task. One has to ask, however, why this was necessary.
Proper management of assets against tasking could have prevented the short notice "Crisis Management" solutions which are a feature of the final sortie of ZD 576.
Hope you weren't driving!!
You are missing the point - everyone else on the crew complied with the requirement.
It was only the Captain who failed to comply; which then brings us to the next point which is that ALL Flight Deck crew (except Air Engineers) attend Met Brief. Well, how many did?
Then, because of time constraints, it was the ALM's from the other crew who had to supervise Baggage loading and Passenger Briefing for the Flight. I infer no blame whatsoever to the ALM's who were only doing their best to assist the Crew doing the Task. One has to ask, however, why this was necessary.
Proper management of assets against tasking could have prevented the short notice "Crisis Management" solutions which are a feature of the final sortie of ZD 576.
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Whilst wanting to re-focus this thread may i suggest that cazatou has his opinion and its just that, whether based on fact or not (which is invariably the case) however this is surely a free speech forum that takes into account peoples views (although i disagree with him entirely).
May i say i will do all i can to see those involved become exonerated of ANY blame..
Mustard Out
May i say i will do all i can to see those involved become exonerated of ANY blame..
Mustard Out
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Mustard
Can't disagree - but the man has become extremely irritating with, as FJJP says, his incessant chatter: to which, I suppose, this post is also contributing. So I'll resist further urges and, as with another gentleman, activate the 'ignore' option - ie, rejoin the sane chaps at the other end of the bar.
Can't disagree - but the man has become extremely irritating with, as FJJP says, his incessant chatter: to which, I suppose, this post is also contributing. So I'll resist further urges and, as with another gentleman, activate the 'ignore' option - ie, rejoin the sane chaps at the other end of the bar.
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Hey, i`m not stopping you from posting(on the contrary), in fact Caz took a swipe at me on another forum, i simply replied it was my right to say what i felt about the particular subject..and i suppose i feel the same about his posts.....above all else lets just get the crew exonerated.....lets all hold hands and re focus
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Why don’t you all piece together the Captain’s known movements and activities that day in chronological order so as to provide a clear timeline of the hours before the flight? Perhaps then we can see if, say:
any anomalous behaviour had occurred;
a slot existed when food could have been consumed;
he was at an extraordinary meeting where food could have been provided;
etc, etc, etc.
May I suggest one contributor starts off by listing his sightings of the Captain with the times and the nature of the activity – then someone else adds/ fills gaps, and so on.
Surely it is relevant to establish as much as possible about the Captain’s last hours before the flight and present it in a format that is easy to get a picture?
any anomalous behaviour had occurred;
a slot existed when food could have been consumed;
he was at an extraordinary meeting where food could have been provided;
etc, etc, etc.
May I suggest one contributor starts off by listing his sightings of the Captain with the times and the nature of the activity – then someone else adds/ fills gaps, and so on.
Surely it is relevant to establish as much as possible about the Captain’s last hours before the flight and present it in a format that is easy to get a picture?
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Mrs L and I enjoyed a top curry tonite but as I suspected and rather smugly predicted Cat has yet again failed to answer a simple question, so I will ask it again...........
Where in the order book you quote does it state WHERE BREAKFAST IS TO TAKEN AND WHAT BREAKFAST IS TO CONSIST OF?
It's not A difficult question so pray tell us your answer......I bet my mortgage he fails to answer!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Where in the order book you quote does it state WHERE BREAKFAST IS TO TAKEN AND WHAT BREAKFAST IS TO CONSIST OF?
It's not A difficult question so pray tell us your answer......I bet my mortgage he fails to answer!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Avoid imitations
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Originally Posted by cazatou
Shy Torque,
In-Flight Catering were tasked to provide it!!
Please do not tell me that In Flight at Aldergrove could not provide - I did 300+ VIP Flights into/out of Aldergrove so I have a fair idea of the capabilities of In-Flight there; even in the early hours of the morning, as used to happen in the days of a Labour Government with a majority of 1 when all hands were needed in the Voting Lobby.
In-Flight Catering were tasked to provide it!!
Please do not tell me that In Flight at Aldergrove could not provide - I did 300+ VIP Flights into/out of Aldergrove so I have a fair idea of the capabilities of In-Flight there; even in the early hours of the morning, as used to happen in the days of a Labour Government with a majority of 1 when all hands were needed in the Voting Lobby.
For example, my first morning in that theatre was supposed to begin at 0830 with an ops briefing and reading / signing of local documents, a threat briefing and a rules of engagement briefing. As it turned out, I was woken at approximately 0550 by a frantic MT driver who told me he had been ordered to take me to the squadron immediately because I was required to take off at 0630. Myself and the captain were out of our beds and dressed within ten minutes, We were driven at speed to the squadron where we debussed and ran to the armoury in pouring rain. Whilst standing in the pouring rain and the dark I was issued with a 9mm pistol, two magazines and two wooden blocks of ammunition. I also signed for an SA-80, two magazines and 60 rounds. All ammunition loaded by hand into the mags, we clattered back to the squadron. We met the crewman, carrying his 7.62 pintle mounted machine gun and box of ammo and we were given the task brief. As far as I recall we self briefed the met from paper copy - there was certainly NOT a visit to the met office (I too never found where it was). The weather forecast and actual showed very low cloud, drizzle and poor visibility. Having outbriefed and received an auth, we quickly walked through to the safety equipment section next door where we collected our helmets and signed for TSJs and body armour. Having only arrived in theatre the previous afternoon I hadn't yet been measured up so I needed to try a few ceramic chest plates in my TSJ until I found one that felt acceptable and wasn't likely to knock my teeth out in the event of a heavy landing. We walked out to the aircraft and took off just about on time.
Oops, what was I thinking about.....no breakfast........
As I have said before, you seem blinkered by your personal experience of VIP fixed wing operations which are miles apart from SH.
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ABIW,
I am afraid that I do not have a copy of ASI's from 1994 readily to hand. I suppose I could ring the Air Attache in Paris to see if he has a copy or, perhaps, you could look in a current edition - I expect the Instruction is still extant. I doubt whether it would detail exactly what breakfast must consist of - vegetarianism is no bar to being aircrew; neither is being a caeliac. Religion also may play a part. The point is that ALL the other Crew Members complied with the ASI.
Shy Torque,
You appear to be suggesting that there is something underhand in my change of user name. It is really quite simple - if you change Internet Service Provider (as we had to do on moving to France) you need a new user name. Many contributors have had the same problem.
I am afraid that I do not have a copy of ASI's from 1994 readily to hand. I suppose I could ring the Air Attache in Paris to see if he has a copy or, perhaps, you could look in a current edition - I expect the Instruction is still extant. I doubt whether it would detail exactly what breakfast must consist of - vegetarianism is no bar to being aircrew; neither is being a caeliac. Religion also may play a part. The point is that ALL the other Crew Members complied with the ASI.
Shy Torque,
You appear to be suggesting that there is something underhand in my change of user name. It is really quite simple - if you change Internet Service Provider (as we had to do on moving to France) you need a new user name. Many contributors have had the same problem.
