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Ainsworth says Afghanistan is "winnable"

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Ainsworth says Afghanistan is "winnable"

Old 17th Aug 2009, 09:21
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Ainsworth says Afghanistan is "winnable"

Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth says the conflict in Afghanistan is "winnable".

It seems that the majortity of the British public don't think so from most of the comments on the BBC have your say site and from what I hear discussed at the many military venues I vistit, most serving people think it is unwinable.......Discuss.
 
Old 17th Aug 2009, 10:20
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I watched him being interviewd by Huw Edwards yesterday morning. My immediate impression was of a man who seems totally uncommitted, to the point of actually lacking an appreciation of the significance and enormity of the post he fills.

So he also feels the campaign is 'winnable', well he responded to Gen Sir David Richards statement that we are in for a long haul with; Quote "Look, the notion that we are going to be in Afghanistan for 30 to 40 years in anything like the form that we are now is ludicrous" Unquote. In fact Gen Richards said the "nation-building" could take 40 years, at no point did he say 30 or 40 years warfighting.

No wonder that this weasel has so little support.
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 10:47
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In my opinion it seems the only information we get through news agencies from Afghanistan is the news of repatriating soldiers, and I would be surprised if this didn't give the general public a one-sided view about this conflict. Obviously if the news doesn't report any progress of any kind.

What annoys me is the media (I'm not sure if it's intentional) ignoring projects being undertaken in Afghanistan in order to improve conditions, building schools etc.

The quote below is from the Arbroath Herald: MARINES' PART IN AFGHANISTAN'S REGENERATION - Arbroath Today

Much of the practical day-to-day activity for the elements of 45 Commando based in Sangin is to patrol daily into the town, which is now a thriving hub of activity and commerce in comparison to how it was only 18 months ago.
Evidence of the continued economic growth and stability can be seen from the current projects such as the refurbishment of the primary school and the building of a new secondary school
I personally believe that if you keep up this kind of effort then this conflict is definitely winnable. Balancing the Hearts and Minds aspect with the need to actually combat the Taleban.

In fact Gen Richards said the "nation-building" could take 40 years, at no point did he say 30 or 40 years warfighting.
This sounds like it could be very similar to the UNMIK (UN Mission in Kosovo), not keeping a military presence as such but more of an oversight for elections and development. In which case it certainly seems likely. (I do know the comparison of Kosovo and Afghanistan isn't the best )
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 12:12
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Just like Northern Ireland secretary, I think Defence Minister is a bit of a poison chalice.

Afghanistan winnable? - Study your history my friend, and count the victors of the past (you won't need too many fingers).
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 12:18
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Our military have good reason to be there, they have been ordered so.

Our politicians have no good reason to subject our military to the hopeless task they have been given.

Get them out, forthwith.
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 12:27
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What is a Trumpeters Job?

Paul Flynn MP (Lab) has just been on BBC News. In his blog, he wrote:
Politicians are in denial and refuse to confront the deep futility of the war in Afghanistan. It's more comfortable to tilt at the windmills of peripheral issues. Last year fellow European countries were howled at for dodging their share of the burden. Now, it's the myth that more troops and helicopters are solutions.

The media serve up delusional pap from embedded journalists. The key issues are ugly truths on Karzai's corruption, evil human rights record and the atrocities of his police and army. Politicians blaming foreigners or each other are on comfortable ground. It’s easier than thinking.

Clinging to myths is a deadly distraction. Afghans say that 'Truth is like the sun. When it rises it is impossible to hide it'. It will be some time before truth dawns in our Parliament.
So how does "the majority of the British public" gather its viewpoint? I'd find 'Truth' and the 'Sun' difficult but there can be relatively straight reporting, such as the Press Association: 204 UK troops killed in Afghan war. The Telegraph swings between reporting the Andrew Marr interview and a stinging extract from an Army magazine.

Does the Mirror's Paul Routledge offer any insight?
The Tories gulped when the Army's new chief promised four more decades of campaigning in Afghanistan, saying it is "unaffordable" and "a non-runner". But even they hadn't the gumption to tell the gung-ho general what he should hear.

I have. Shut up, keep your military advice to the proper channels and do as you're told by the people we elect to run the country.
OK, perhaps not so try Jason Beattie.

For me, any UK exit strategy must be grounded in an Afghan state that is trusted by its people to provide economic and physical security. Afghan elections start the 1st round on 20 Aug 09. These elections have to be credible, supported and must not be disrupted by Taleban violence. Signs aren't great but the coalition has to prevail, noting that the process could follow-on into late September with the attendant dangers to civil and military alike.

The MP for Newport West might match Karzai with the Afghan proverb "It’s the same donkey, but with a new saddle." I'd leave the choice to the Afghans and another proverb: "There is a path to the top of even the highest mountain."
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 13:07
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I am always a bit surprised that no mention is ever made of enemy dead. Is this political correctness or what? It wouldn't be giving away too much if the Army would give out statements simply saying that over the past week, in the operational area, XX Taliban were killed.
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 13:09
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 13:40
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Snearing arse ! do you thing he knows the Herc behind him is not a E'llicopter ?
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 14:03
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Originally Posted by Argonautical
I am always a bit surprised that no mention is ever made of enemy dead. Is this political correctness or what?
No, it is a hard lesson learnt from Vietnam. The Vietnam war eventually became a war of body counts. We have killed more of them than they have of us so we are winning.

Or, as Ed Macy said in Apache, we are not in to 'Kill TV'.

As for balanced reportage, we get news from our press releases and embeds, we get precious little news of the other nations except where it serves a propaganda purpose - "Soldiers of Country X don't fight and get 2 cans of beer per day whereas our gallant lads . . . "

I read an English language newspaper in Copenhagen a little while back, quite illuminating. While they pulled out of active operations they still left a significant number of troops in harms way in a support role.
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 15:44
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New Afghan Law

It is widely reported today that the Afghan Government have passed a law making it legal for a man to starve his wife if she refuses to have s*x with him. Is this any governement that we should be expending British lives and money to "Support"? I think not!
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 15:57
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Define 'winnable'.

What exactly is the potential gain?
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 15:59
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Here's the bbc link : BBC NEWS | South Asia | Row over Afghan wife-starving law
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 16:01
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It is widely reported today that the Afghan Government have passed a law making it legal for a man to starve his wife if she refuses to have s*x with him. Is this any governement that we should be expending British lives and money to "Support"? I think not!
I entirely agree with you, but Mr Karzai believes this was necessary to gain hardline support ahead of the elections. In my opinion he shouldn't be begging for their support, but obviously thats not the case. They claim its a watered down version of the bill that was withdrawn a few months ago, but to me it certainly seems pretty horific by our standards.

The americans have appeared to kept pretty quiet about this, possibly because they support the leadership of Karzai and would give him a concession to ensure he stays in power. Got to love american foreign policy!!!
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 16:09
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Originally Posted by enginesuck
Snearing arse ! do you thing he knows the Herc behind him is not a E'llicopter ?
If you are running a bad venture and you happen to be a nutter, you don't put someone in charge of it who might tell you that you are wrong.... Hello Bob!
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 16:15
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17 August 2009 - Sangin

A viewpoint from Michael Yon


For Political Outer Offices who apparently search PPRuNe for their bosses:
The roads are so littered with enemy bombs that nearly all transport and resupply to this base occurs by helicopter. The pilots roar through the darkness, swoop into small bases nestled in the saddle of enemy territory, and quickly rumble off into the night.

A witness must spend only a short time in the darkness to know we are at war. Flares arc into the night, or mortar illumination rounds drift and swing under parachutes, orange and eerily in the distance, casting long, flickering but sharply defined shadows. The worst that can happen is that you will be caught in an open field, covered by nothing and concealed only by darkness, when the illumination suddenly bathes you in light. Best is to stay low and freeze and prepare to fire, or in the case of a writer, to stay low and freeze and prepare to watch the firing.
Thanks ORAC
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 16:18
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MackayIn my opinion it seems the only information we get through news agencies from Afghanistan is the news of repatriating soldiers, and I would be surprised if this didn't give the general public a one-sided view about this conflict. Obviously if the news doesn't report any progress of any kind.

What annoys me is the media (I'm not sure if it's intentional) ignoring projects being undertaken in Afghanistan in order to improve conditions, building schools etc.

The quote below is from the Arbroath Herald: MARINES' PART IN AFGHANISTAN'S REGENERATION - Arbroath Today

Quote:
Much of the practical day-to-day activity for the elements of 45 Commando based in Sangin is to patrol daily into the town, which is now a thriving hub of activity and commerce in comparison to how it was only 18 months ago.
Quote:
Evidence of the continued economic growth and stability can be seen from the current projects such as the refurbishment of the primary school and the building of a new secondary school
I personally believe that if you keep up this kind of effort then this conflict is definitely winnable. Balancing the Hearts and Minds aspect with the need to actually combat the Taleban.

Quote:
In fact Gen Richards said the "nation-building" could take 40 years, at no point did he say 30 or 40 years warfighting.
This sounds like it could be very similar to the UNMIK (UN Mission in Kosovo), not keeping a military presence as such but more of an oversight for elections and development. In which case it certainly seems likely. (I do know the comparison of Kosovo and Afghanistan isn't the best )
That all well and good, but the minute you remove the said Marines from the area you will be back to square one faster than you can shout Taliban.....

No one wins in Afghanistan, ask the Russians......

Similar to the other idea I read as to why do we not buy simply buy the opium for the medical trade from the farmers and starve the Taliban of it's funding...... Simple, shortage on the street creates price hikes, more cash means you pay more for the stuff from the farmers than UK PLC which then means UK PLC would have to stump up more money and market forces and up we go in an ever increasing spiral.
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 19:11
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QFI - Indeed it's beyond belief that we are supporting a country that has these ideas ! Is it really worth fighting for?
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 21:02
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Just few weeks ago a Middle Eastern gentleman, well-versed in International Relations, said to me over a coffee...

"These people live to fight. While you are there they will fight you. When you go home they will fight each other."

Mans got a point.
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 21:41
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What constitues 'winning the Afghan war'? And what is the exit srtategy?
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