Crew Fatigue : Own Up or Man Up?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist
As the Tri* incident in Kandahar seems to have upset you and your 'AT, FJ & Rotary' friends so badly, perhaps you could please recount the 'facts' of the case as you know them?
Knowing the details of the case myself, I can then score your accuracy or, as I suspect more likely, prove that you are guilty of outrage over second-hand, ignorant hoop.
Still, why let the facts get in the way of a chance to have a good PPrune outrage frenzy?!
As the Tri* incident in Kandahar seems to have upset you and your 'AT, FJ & Rotary' friends so badly, perhaps you could please recount the 'facts' of the case as you know them?
Knowing the details of the case myself, I can then score your accuracy or, as I suspect more likely, prove that you are guilty of outrage over second-hand, ignorant hoop.
Still, why let the facts get in the way of a chance to have a good PPrune outrage frenzy?!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BGG
I don't know the story about the Mover driving into steps, But ground incidents can sometimes be caused by fatigue too.
I had it with a MT incident, I found one of of vehicles with a dent in the car park in a ex dusty place early days , I manned up and reported to MT. They wanted to blame me for the damage. When the report was filled out and they wanted me to sign it, I told them I would only sign it if they added I had been working 2 weeks 16 hours days no down days and no air-con. Subsequently report was binned because they would not add my request.
I don't know the story about the Mover driving into steps, But ground incidents can sometimes be caused by fatigue too.
I had it with a MT incident, I found one of of vehicles with a dent in the car park in a ex dusty place early days , I manned up and reported to MT. They wanted to blame me for the damage. When the report was filled out and they wanted me to sign it, I told them I would only sign it if they added I had been working 2 weeks 16 hours days no down days and no air-con. Subsequently report was binned because they would not add my request.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: London
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Options:
Obviously do all you can not to find yourself in the position whereby others will suffer if you take your self 'offline' due to fatigue. If its not a P1 shout .. the odd 'too fatigued to fly with my usual level of safety' could be a worth while and forgive the pun a good 'wake up call' for those higher up the chain.
But of you 'need' to fly shattered:
1. Crew Naps (During transit .. own up to being shattered and take a nap with the others covering
2. Own up in flight so the less fatigued crew members are at least aware and can take more of the critical workload.
3. Red Bull ( or Pro Plus for OOA) half an hour before intensive phases or flight.
I'm not suggesting downing a tin of RB as SOP ahead of pulling the red handle when the bell rings ...
P
Obviously do all you can not to find yourself in the position whereby others will suffer if you take your self 'offline' due to fatigue. If its not a P1 shout .. the odd 'too fatigued to fly with my usual level of safety' could be a worth while and forgive the pun a good 'wake up call' for those higher up the chain.
But of you 'need' to fly shattered:
1. Crew Naps (During transit .. own up to being shattered and take a nap with the others covering
2. Own up in flight so the less fatigued crew members are at least aware and can take more of the critical workload.
3. Red Bull ( or Pro Plus for OOA) half an hour before intensive phases or flight.
I'm not suggesting downing a tin of RB as SOP ahead of pulling the red handle when the bell rings ...
P
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Over 10 days and we were crisp crackered and this was peacetime. Absolutely no leadership to preserve fatigue. Read APACHE, they had very strict control of crew rest and the OC had a minder to ensure he complied too.
A good number of years ago there was an RAAF AvMed report that noted that fatigue was accumlative. A good night's rest was OK after a prolonged duty day. Where the prolonged days were not followed by proper rest so fatigue would accumulate and after a few days (can't remember the exact stats) you needed first 24 hr and then up to 72 hr proper rest.
On one sqn we could take up to 14 days leave, ie Saturday to Friday fortnight. On Monday or Tuesday following, most people could not remember having been on leave. That was fatigue.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem with GASO's is quite simple: senior officers feel free to tell you to operate outside them until you ask for something in writing, then they don't have the moral courage to "man up".
It is almost inevitable that if a T* captain does something that causes inconvenience to the system they will be villified. If that same captain bowed to the outside pressure and pressed on and had an accident, he will be condemned for needlessly putting lives at risk.
One thing is for certain, if you have an accident, you or your estate, will be sued by someone should you step out of the protection of the rules because you think you know better. Crown immunity will disappear faster than you can imagine if you have operated outside GASOs and senior officers will amaze you at how quickly they will queue up to condemn you.
It has been pointed out that flying a T* is as easy as flying an airliner - okay cast your eyes at the fatigue issues in the Colgan Air crash at Buffalo. It could easily be argued that the scientifically based CAP371 rules regarding crew duty should be those that the T* operates to. It is not and the easy RAF crew duty rules allow a lot more flexibility than a civil charter operator would be allowed to utilise.
BEagle hit the nail on the head you cannot choose what rules you want just to fit the day. If the rules are wrong get them changed. People with the moral courage to apply the rules when it causes a lot of disruption are what the RAF needs for the its non-operational AT flying. If no one is shooting at you there is no need to to extraordinary measures.
It is almost inevitable that if a T* captain does something that causes inconvenience to the system they will be villified. If that same captain bowed to the outside pressure and pressed on and had an accident, he will be condemned for needlessly putting lives at risk.
One thing is for certain, if you have an accident, you or your estate, will be sued by someone should you step out of the protection of the rules because you think you know better. Crown immunity will disappear faster than you can imagine if you have operated outside GASOs and senior officers will amaze you at how quickly they will queue up to condemn you.
It has been pointed out that flying a T* is as easy as flying an airliner - okay cast your eyes at the fatigue issues in the Colgan Air crash at Buffalo. It could easily be argued that the scientifically based CAP371 rules regarding crew duty should be those that the T* operates to. It is not and the easy RAF crew duty rules allow a lot more flexibility than a civil charter operator would be allowed to utilise.
BEagle hit the nail on the head you cannot choose what rules you want just to fit the day. If the rules are wrong get them changed. People with the moral courage to apply the rules when it causes a lot of disruption are what the RAF needs for the its non-operational AT flying. If no one is shooting at you there is no need to to extraordinary measures.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: bored
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We would all agree, I think that the output level of training from the military flying training system is far superior to the civvy minimum cost route.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: England
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CessnaPete...
I am sure that someone will point out (in the very near future) that there are actually 3 people on a Tri* Flight Deck.......
P.S........Congratulations on just giving their 'slip pattern' away.......
I am sure that someone will point out (in the very near future) that there are actually 3 people on a Tri* Flight Deck.......
P.S........Congratulations on just giving their 'slip pattern' away.......
Curator - what difference does it make how many are in the cockpit if they are all fatigued??
I'm sure Terry Taliban won't worry about trying to sabotage the crews now he knows their secret 'slip pattern' - the MoD seem quite capable of doing the enemy's job for them by not addressing the real concerns over crew fatigue.
I'm sure Terry Taliban won't worry about trying to sabotage the crews now he knows their secret 'slip pattern' - the MoD seem quite capable of doing the enemy's job for them by not addressing the real concerns over crew fatigue.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London Village
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Curator,
Last time I checked there were, as cessnapete quite rightly points out, only two pilots on the flight deck. There is also another life form there but he is not a pilot
Last time I checked there were, as cessnapete quite rightly points out, only two pilots on the flight deck. There is also another life form there but he is not a pilot
Thread Starter
Let's not forget that slipping the crew 8 to a room on a daystop is being done for one reason only - COST.
The slip patern mentioned turns every trip into at least a 4/5 days so it is more thirsty on crews. Furthermore, there are a few other pitfalls (which I cannot mention) aside form fatigue/saftey that make the new pattern far more fragile than what you have now.
Overall advantage...nil , BUT, you don't have a crew staying overnight in a hotel. This saves some cash and has the added bonus that everyone is seen to be treated the same - crew and passengers similarly tired and hacked off. I hope that the crewmembers out there do own up and call a stop if they are genuinely too tired to operate safely, and realise the legal implications of anything going wrong if they do not. As it is, I'm sure those further up the chain are relying on peer pressure, fear of reprisal, and the desire of the crews to get themselves out of theatre will ensure they press on regardless, even if they haven't slept properly.
From what I've seen, every year something changes to the Herrick Airbridge, presumably so that someone in PJHQ or Group can make a name for themselves before the next promotion board.
I look on with interest.
The slip patern mentioned turns every trip into at least a 4/5 days so it is more thirsty on crews. Furthermore, there are a few other pitfalls (which I cannot mention) aside form fatigue/saftey that make the new pattern far more fragile than what you have now.
Overall advantage...nil , BUT, you don't have a crew staying overnight in a hotel. This saves some cash and has the added bonus that everyone is seen to be treated the same - crew and passengers similarly tired and hacked off. I hope that the crewmembers out there do own up and call a stop if they are genuinely too tired to operate safely, and realise the legal implications of anything going wrong if they do not. As it is, I'm sure those further up the chain are relying on peer pressure, fear of reprisal, and the desire of the crews to get themselves out of theatre will ensure they press on regardless, even if they haven't slept properly.
From what I've seen, every year something changes to the Herrick Airbridge, presumably so that someone in PJHQ or Group can make a name for themselves before the next promotion board.
I look on with interest.
Arty Fufkin
A great way to operate!'' A bonus that both Crews and pax both fatigued and hacked off.''
We try and avoid that in my workplace. Do Senior Officers really not care about safety and go for cost savings only?
It could turn around and bite them.
We try and avoid that in my workplace. Do Senior Officers really not care about safety and go for cost savings only?
It could turn around and bite them.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: firmly on dry land
Age: 80
Posts: 1,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The crew rest issue is as old as the hills.
It is true operational crews may live in hot, sandy, noisy environments and will suffer interupted sleep etc. Curiously the body eventually gets used to the disturbance as a pattern and rest of some sort becomes possible.
Crews en route, continually changing environments, do not have the chance to acclaimatise to appallng conditions. One long running issue, especially for day slips, was the daily regularity of cleaners and their vaccum cleaners or the inflexibility of meals times with breakfast at 7pm consisting of Roast Beef when the body is crying out for a bacon sarni.
I am fortunate never having had to operate a crew slip system, but I can sympathise. It may not be everyone's idea of hell, but it still takes its toll.
It is true operational crews may live in hot, sandy, noisy environments and will suffer interupted sleep etc. Curiously the body eventually gets used to the disturbance as a pattern and rest of some sort becomes possible.
Crews en route, continually changing environments, do not have the chance to acclaimatise to appallng conditions. One long running issue, especially for day slips, was the daily regularity of cleaners and their vaccum cleaners or the inflexibility of meals times with breakfast at 7pm consisting of Roast Beef when the body is crying out for a bacon sarni.
I am fortunate never having had to operate a crew slip system, but I can sympathise. It may not be everyone's idea of hell, but it still takes its toll.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,555
Likes: 0
Received 42 Likes
on
29 Posts
As Bob Monkhouse once said:
"My Father died peacefully in his sleep......
........unlike his passengers who were screaming in terror as the aircraft hit the sea."
"My Father died peacefully in his sleep......
........unlike his passengers who were screaming in terror as the aircraft hit the sea."
Last edited by Wensleydale; 17th Aug 2009 at 13:12. Reason: Spell Cx.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Mostly here, but often there
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
........unlike his passengers who were screaming in terror as the aircraft hit the sea."
Whilst there are occasional operational imperatives to do so, one of the reasons the slip changes so bloody often (in my slightly out of date experience) is an attempt to appease their airships who in turn are bowing to pressure from the generals to improve its productivity. Yes, the guys going back and forth absolutely deserve to be on time but constant fettling with the programme won't change the fact that they are trying to achieve it with too few crews operating an aged airliner. I do hope the glass cockpit improves things....
Keep it up fellas...all good stuff for the incoming new incumbent
Join Date: May 2008
Location: gloucester
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am strugling to find a reason for airbridge crews to be bleating about having to share a 8 man room.(Unless there is 16 of them) Surely this is normally for only one day/night, two a push!
Couple of points here,
1) If you want hotels in down town kandibar.. your on your own!
2) Sleeping in the day, at this time of year, is the best thing to be doing, its kin hot out there
If they are so worried about fatigue they should have a crew change at every place they land. Yes its crew intensive but if they havnt the crews they need to look at thier manning levels, Its not as if we have just started an airbridge. Yes crews may be away from home for 4-5 days but its not 4 or even 6 months is it!
A Crew change at each stop surely gives max flexibity on these important flights, or would that give Ascot more flex to get away with ...........things!
Couple of points here,
1) If you want hotels in down town kandibar.. your on your own!
2) Sleeping in the day, at this time of year, is the best thing to be doing, its kin hot out there
If they are so worried about fatigue they should have a crew change at every place they land. Yes its crew intensive but if they havnt the crews they need to look at thier manning levels, Its not as if we have just started an airbridge. Yes crews may be away from home for 4-5 days but its not 4 or even 6 months is it!
A Crew change at each stop surely gives max flexibity on these important flights, or would that give Ascot more flex to get away with ...........things!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: firmly on dry land
Age: 80
Posts: 1,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Collbar, did you read my post above?
Acclimatisation is the key. Even those on a regular stop over will be affected more than people inured to the discomfort.
Acclimatisation is the key. Even those on a regular stop over will be affected more than people inured to the discomfort.
Yes its crew intensive but if they havnt the crews they need to look at thier manning levels, Its not as if we have just started an airbridge.
Surely by now the Ascot planners and operations people must have the airbridge down to a fine art? If not, what on earth have they been doing?
Or am I talking porcovolantly?