Crew Fatigue : Own Up or Man Up?
Thread Starter
Hey c'mon fellas. In with the hate, out with the love.
I've seen ALL fleets pull the stops out for an aeromed or comp A. That's in our nature. Maybe we need to draw a line between what constitutes an operational task and a routine, scheduled AT task:
Is a Trimotor from KAF to the UK really operational flying? Or is it just AT flying in support of operations? If it's the latter, then why tolerate any factors that degrade flight safety?
How happy would you be taking the wife and kids on holiday flown by a crew who were busting their crew duty limits and had crap rest during their layover because their company put them four to a room on a daystop? Particularly if it was highly likely that they would be operating a jet with a list of unserviceabilities adding to the.... interest factor!!
Take care out there.
Arty F
I've seen ALL fleets pull the stops out for an aeromed or comp A. That's in our nature. Maybe we need to draw a line between what constitutes an operational task and a routine, scheduled AT task:
Is a Trimotor from KAF to the UK really operational flying? Or is it just AT flying in support of operations? If it's the latter, then why tolerate any factors that degrade flight safety?
How happy would you be taking the wife and kids on holiday flown by a crew who were busting their crew duty limits and had crap rest during their layover because their company put them four to a room on a daystop? Particularly if it was highly likely that they would be operating a jet with a list of unserviceabilities adding to the.... interest factor!!
Take care out there.
Arty F
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A few years ago, I had to do some serious soul-searching over fatigue. It was on TELIC, in support of a big ground op, and involving all the types operated by JHF(I). It was a little while after the regulations had all been brought into line so the three services were all operating under the same regulations.... now in this operation we bust them, and I mean bust them badly - however there ensues a sort of stand-off where nobody was going to be first to fess up - the RAF, Junglies and AAC were all hanging off their chinstraps but weren't going to let their service down in front of the other two. The JHF(I) commander at the time effectively colluded in this. We operated well beyond what I think was safe and it is probably just because the op did not proceed to its most complex phase that we didn't have an(other) accident. Sure, the op was important, but on reflection it was a very poor decision (on my part amongst others) to press for home in the morning once the op was over - a couple of hours of non-op flying that we didn't really NEED to do.
We are a lot more joint now, and there were some specific circumstances that may have influenced a couple of the det commanders to push it, but I still suspect that this sort of thing could occur again..... any thoughts?
We are a lot more joint now, and there were some specific circumstances that may have influenced a couple of the det commanders to push it, but I still suspect that this sort of thing could occur again..... any thoughts?
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Some 3 years ago during an operational 'push', our crew was authorised to go over the 130Hrs GASO limit for the period and ended up doing 148 Hrs in 26 days. This was done after the capt was asked to consult with the crew to ensure eveyone was ok with it (there was no pressure applied) and it was auth'd all the way up the chain. This restored my faith in the supervisory chain at the time as it was done in the right way and for the best of reasons.
Regards,
DA.
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Leadership
Leadership, In an nut shell...
Aircrew, fess up and discuss, thats why you are SNCO`s or Officers.
Captains/Aircraft Commanders....thats what you get paid for.
Authorisors, it your job to assess and make a decision.
Chain of Command...ensure you place management controls that crews don`t get to this point and if they do they know the your position, dependant on the situation.
Ops or not On Ops, fatigue causes incidents and accidents. We all push the boat out on ops....but what difference does it make post incident if you were on an operation or not - None what so ever to the board of inquiry.
Aircrew, fess up and discuss, thats why you are SNCO`s or Officers.
Captains/Aircraft Commanders....thats what you get paid for.
Authorisors, it your job to assess and make a decision.
Chain of Command...ensure you place management controls that crews don`t get to this point and if they do they know the your position, dependant on the situation.
Ops or not On Ops, fatigue causes incidents and accidents. We all push the boat out on ops....but what difference does it make post incident if you were on an operation or not - None what so ever to the board of inquiry.
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Planned CDT Extensions
What irritates me is when crews are tasked by operations beyond the normal crew duty limits and when questioned as to the validity of the flight are told that it is OK because the Capt has the ability to extend the flight by 2hrs beyond normal crew duty.
I have seen/heard of this both in Mil (non-operational) and Civil Ops several times, although not personally to me.
My response would be no-go, that extension is for unplanned reasons and only if at the time the Capt & crew feel up to it. How do you know how you will feel in 16hrs?
I have heard of crews accepting the tasks and it p1sses me off because I believe it is illegal and sets president with operations to continue planning unachievable tasks!
I have seen/heard of this both in Mil (non-operational) and Civil Ops several times, although not personally to me.
My response would be no-go, that extension is for unplanned reasons and only if at the time the Capt & crew feel up to it. How do you know how you will feel in 16hrs?
I have heard of crews accepting the tasks and it p1sses me off because I believe it is illegal and sets president with operations to continue planning unachievable tasks!
Past Experiences
May I, a long way removed from current operations, throw in my view.
Many years ago I was Sqn Ldr Ops at Upavon (or ASCOT Ops). I was frequently asked for a crew duty extension ("if we need it") when a Herc had been re-routed through Goose Bay before carrying on to Gander for the originally planned night stop. Strangely, we were never asked the same question if GB was the night stop. My response was always wait until you are at Goose (maybe 10 + hours away) and then see how you feel.
My second second-hand experience was during Gulf War I. I was then back at Lyneham and we had a detachment with DetCo in Akrotiri. CDT had already been extended to 19 hours for all operational flights but the DetCo wanted to have the authority to extend it further if necessary. Wg Cdr Ops thought we should let him. Mindful of the distant pressures I used to get whilst at Upavon I disagreed, saying that the DetCo would be faced with unfair pressures from possibly self-important senior officers insisting that their presence in theatre overrode all other considerations, and insisted that Wg Cdr Ops and I took the issue to the Stn Cdr - he listened to both sides but then agreed with me.
My final experience was more personal. Down at 1312 Flt in MPA we had a flight party one Saturday night. It was a reasonably sober affair, ending by 2300 (by the rules). We cleared up and then went back to the Mess to bed. At 0300 on Sunday morning (this was in the days when Capt Beaky had decided Wednesday would be the day of rest) the Stn Cdr had a Stn (Exercise) Call Out. I reported to the Flight, checked that my Gd Defence Commander had everything in hand and then retired to the Crew Room along with the rest of my and the 2 other crews to snatch some rest in case we went flying. Capt Beaky then decided to call in and was incensed that I should be resting ande not running round like the traditional blue a***d fly. That night I and my crew were on QRA and were called out at about midnight to go look for a reported fishing vessel on fire and act as top cover for the helo sent to assist. We remained in the area for about 5 hours but returning to MPA on the PAR (chosen for prudent safety's sake) I "woke up" to hear the T/D controller saying "You are well below the glide path ACKNOWLEDGE". Capt Beaky was a fighter/bomber puke and could never understand that I was one of only 3 Captains and not one of 15 aircrew as he saw it. As they say I learnt about flying from that and it is probably that that coloured my approach to CDT extensions whilst at Upavon and after.
From my experiences, it is all very well breaking the rules and getting away with it but the man who said that rules were for the guidance of fools was entirely correct. As an aircraft captain, you can always "break" them with good reason (when really necessary) but you surely have to be there after the event to defend your actions. If you are not, others will make that judgement for you - witness the never ending thread at the top.
Many years ago I was Sqn Ldr Ops at Upavon (or ASCOT Ops). I was frequently asked for a crew duty extension ("if we need it") when a Herc had been re-routed through Goose Bay before carrying on to Gander for the originally planned night stop. Strangely, we were never asked the same question if GB was the night stop. My response was always wait until you are at Goose (maybe 10 + hours away) and then see how you feel.
My second second-hand experience was during Gulf War I. I was then back at Lyneham and we had a detachment with DetCo in Akrotiri. CDT had already been extended to 19 hours for all operational flights but the DetCo wanted to have the authority to extend it further if necessary. Wg Cdr Ops thought we should let him. Mindful of the distant pressures I used to get whilst at Upavon I disagreed, saying that the DetCo would be faced with unfair pressures from possibly self-important senior officers insisting that their presence in theatre overrode all other considerations, and insisted that Wg Cdr Ops and I took the issue to the Stn Cdr - he listened to both sides but then agreed with me.
My final experience was more personal. Down at 1312 Flt in MPA we had a flight party one Saturday night. It was a reasonably sober affair, ending by 2300 (by the rules). We cleared up and then went back to the Mess to bed. At 0300 on Sunday morning (this was in the days when Capt Beaky had decided Wednesday would be the day of rest) the Stn Cdr had a Stn (Exercise) Call Out. I reported to the Flight, checked that my Gd Defence Commander had everything in hand and then retired to the Crew Room along with the rest of my and the 2 other crews to snatch some rest in case we went flying. Capt Beaky then decided to call in and was incensed that I should be resting ande not running round like the traditional blue a***d fly. That night I and my crew were on QRA and were called out at about midnight to go look for a reported fishing vessel on fire and act as top cover for the helo sent to assist. We remained in the area for about 5 hours but returning to MPA on the PAR (chosen for prudent safety's sake) I "woke up" to hear the T/D controller saying "You are well below the glide path ACKNOWLEDGE". Capt Beaky was a fighter/bomber puke and could never understand that I was one of only 3 Captains and not one of 15 aircrew as he saw it. As they say I learnt about flying from that and it is probably that that coloured my approach to CDT extensions whilst at Upavon and after.
From my experiences, it is all very well breaking the rules and getting away with it but the man who said that rules were for the guidance of fools was entirely correct. As an aircraft captain, you can always "break" them with good reason (when really necessary) but you surely have to be there after the event to defend your actions. If you are not, others will make that judgement for you - witness the never ending thread at the top.
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This is a very interesting discussion and has to be one of the most valid for a long time on Pprune!
My thoughts:
1. Talk of things being OK 'on Ops' or 'at war' is fine when that line is clearly defined. The over-tasked frequency of our outfit now means that our steady-state has become 'on Ops'.
2. I fly an aircraft, usually as Captain, carrying a great many people in support of HERRICK (clue: it's got more than 3 donks!). It has been made very clear to us that any major incident/accident would almost certainly be a stopper for the whole Op. That, like all things, has to be balanced against the task in hand. We regularly work in excess of 24hr days to get the injured to BHX. The would not be true of other 'loads'.
3. SS - Yes, the Captain is a major part of the decision-making loop, but he's only one link in the chain. Levels of risk have to be taken at the appropriate levels of command. It is impossible to define those levels, but it is incumbant on us all to understand and flag upwards exactly what risks are being taken on a trip-by-trip basis.
Just my thoughts,
Uncle G
My thoughts:
1. Talk of things being OK 'on Ops' or 'at war' is fine when that line is clearly defined. The over-tasked frequency of our outfit now means that our steady-state has become 'on Ops'.
2. I fly an aircraft, usually as Captain, carrying a great many people in support of HERRICK (clue: it's got more than 3 donks!). It has been made very clear to us that any major incident/accident would almost certainly be a stopper for the whole Op. That, like all things, has to be balanced against the task in hand. We regularly work in excess of 24hr days to get the injured to BHX. The would not be true of other 'loads'.
3. SS - Yes, the Captain is a major part of the decision-making loop, but he's only one link in the chain. Levels of risk have to be taken at the appropriate levels of command. It is impossible to define those levels, but it is incumbant on us all to understand and flag upwards exactly what risks are being taken on a trip-by-trip basis.
Just my thoughts,
Uncle G
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I think we all understand the 130 crews will take more risks than the rest of the fixed wing AT fleet, and no doubt fly very fatigued a lot of the time. Nature of the beast. Does that make it right?
The Tristar Captain who declares his crew is unfit to fly home is perfectly aware that the guys down the back have had a bloody hard six months and would really like to go home now. Even more so with a Comp or CCAST on board.
You think 216 is new to this?
Thank God they stopped the routine 24 hour augmented crew days, whoever thought that was enduring had never obviously done that route week after week after week.
Who benefits from extremely tired crews flying through the busy Western European airspace? The civvies in those other planes passing 500 feet away on the way to their holidays?
Maybe it'd be easier to remain alert if there was the threat of small arms fire or SAM attack, but when all you have is your own willpower it is a real battle.
This isn't a pissing contest. Why do some feel the need to drag everyone down to their level of operating, rather than trying to raise everyone's game to the highest level? To prove how macho they are?
Good for you fella, have a medal. But when it's me or my family involved, get a good night's sleep would you? There's a good chap.
The Tristar Captain who declares his crew is unfit to fly home is perfectly aware that the guys down the back have had a bloody hard six months and would really like to go home now. Even more so with a Comp or CCAST on board.
You think 216 is new to this?
Thank God they stopped the routine 24 hour augmented crew days, whoever thought that was enduring had never obviously done that route week after week after week.
Who benefits from extremely tired crews flying through the busy Western European airspace? The civvies in those other planes passing 500 feet away on the way to their holidays?
Maybe it'd be easier to remain alert if there was the threat of small arms fire or SAM attack, but when all you have is your own willpower it is a real battle.
This isn't a pissing contest. Why do some feel the need to drag everyone down to their level of operating, rather than trying to raise everyone's game to the highest level? To prove how macho they are?
Good for you fella, have a medal. But when it's me or my family involved, get a good night's sleep would you? There's a good chap.
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A little aside, does anyine remember that fifh gear survey of driving while pi$$ed verses driving while absoultely chinstrapped.....?
Whose driving was worse?
Now I surmise flying of any type is far harder than driving a car and you can sit there and discuss various situations. Let us play devils advocate for a moment and apply Xercules's lamp swinging to a big jet coming back from the 'stan and the crew does not hear the call from air tragic and augers in.
Is the fact they were short of sleep and felt pressure to man up any justification? Or what about if they mid-air'd into my holiday flight because the RAF are too cheap to buy some "look out look out" system and they were too knackered to keep a good watch?
I appreciate and sympathise with the pax having to spend another night in a rubb but which would they rather?
The converse is true, if you are given crew rest then please use it for the purpose it is intended, spending time inspecting the inside of your eyelid. Not Hookers, Blackjack and Booze!
And surely there must be some legal and safe tablet that can get you a smooth 8 hr kip with no side effects? if not maybe you could get someone to make them - we'd all be millionaires.
The bottom line is, unless there is a cast iron, one off, reason for it you should not be exceeding rest hours and if it coming up regularly then you are understaffed and you owe it to yourself, your crew, your pax, your families and all the people that a pilot error crash would affect to do something about it.
I would rather fly with an airline who delays my flight because there is no safe pilot available rather than one who pushes the envelope to get some more money.
Fly Safe - Not Tired.
Whose driving was worse?
Now I surmise flying of any type is far harder than driving a car and you can sit there and discuss various situations. Let us play devils advocate for a moment and apply Xercules's lamp swinging
to a big jet coming back from the 'stan and the crew does not hear the call from air tragic and augers in.Is the fact they were short of sleep and felt pressure to man up any justification? Or what about if they mid-air'd into my holiday flight because the RAF are too cheap to buy some "look out look out" system and they were too knackered to keep a good watch?
I appreciate and sympathise with the pax having to spend another night in a rubb but which would they rather?
The converse is true, if you are given crew rest then please use it for the purpose it is intended, spending time inspecting the inside of your eyelid. Not Hookers, Blackjack and Booze!
And surely there must be some legal and safe tablet that can get you a smooth 8 hr kip with no side effects? if not maybe you could get someone to make them - we'd all be millionaires.
The bottom line is, unless there is a cast iron, one off, reason for it you should not be exceeding rest hours and if it coming up regularly then you are understaffed and you owe it to yourself, your crew, your pax, your families and all the people that a pilot error crash would affect to do something about it.
I would rather fly with an airline who delays my flight because there is no safe pilot available rather than one who pushes the envelope to get some more money.
Fly Safe - Not Tired.
In 2002, I experienced what I would term cumulative fatigue even under 'peace time' conditions. Several long UK-Calgary instructional trips interspersed with AAR instructional flights in the UK, simulators, course management niff-naff all due to the 'Won't say no' attitude of the kids in high places masquerading as senior officers conspired to wear me out. To the extent that, having hopped back into the seat just before TOD to act as handling pilot (that leg required the LHS pilot to be non-handling) after a long night Atlantic pond-hop, I got so far behind the jet that I wasn't able to sort out the student navigator's cock-up TOD call (staff navigator hadn't bothered to check it....) and, as a result, we were very hot and high and I ended up having to go around from a rubbish approach. Why had I got into this sitch? Well, apart from forgetting about diurnal effect and not being alert enough to do the (3 x height split plus 10) cross-check, I was basically completely knackered, made wrong calls ("Flap T/O" instead of "Landing Gear down") due to brain dump and simply wasn't working properly....
The only time you know you're too fatigued is when something happens - it creeps up on you insidiously.
In my case, there were 'no wrecks, nobody drownded' (as the saying goes). But no sympathy whatever from the wheels - I later worked out the actual number of days rest I'd had in 3 months and told the 'management' that they needed to think again about their absurd policy of never saying no to ever more stupid demands from on high. Did they do anything? Did they hell - so I then took the decision to leave them to it, pulled the B&Y and got a life again.
Even in civilian, non-flying roles you can get fatigued. I used to work a full week in Europe, getting up daily at 0630 and working from 0800-1800. Then, on the last day, flying to FRA after 1700, then eventually getting to BHX at 2230 (or 2330 'body time'). Home in the dark, arriving at about 0030. After one such 19 hr day, the TV news reported the sad accident which happened to the chap who fell asleep and drove onto the railway lines causing a disaster. I decided there and then that I wouldn't do any more 19 hour days, so nowadays I stay an extra night and have a relaxing journey home instead. It's a lot safer.
The modern world is a high pressure environment and people are often far too eager to please, whether in military, aviation or other spheres. Supervisors must respect the rights of subordinates to say "NO!" to unreasonably fatiguing work demands.
As for the pratt who once said that "Post-route stand-down doesn't apply to Sqn Execs....."
Fortunately he's no longer inflicting himself on anyone in the RAF.
The only time you know you're too fatigued is when something happens - it creeps up on you insidiously.
In my case, there were 'no wrecks, nobody drownded' (as the saying goes). But no sympathy whatever from the wheels - I later worked out the actual number of days rest I'd had in 3 months and told the 'management' that they needed to think again about their absurd policy of never saying no to ever more stupid demands from on high. Did they do anything? Did they hell - so I then took the decision to leave them to it, pulled the B&Y and got a life again.
Even in civilian, non-flying roles you can get fatigued. I used to work a full week in Europe, getting up daily at 0630 and working from 0800-1800. Then, on the last day, flying to FRA after 1700, then eventually getting to BHX at 2230 (or 2330 'body time'). Home in the dark, arriving at about 0030. After one such 19 hr day, the TV news reported the sad accident which happened to the chap who fell asleep and drove onto the railway lines causing a disaster. I decided there and then that I wouldn't do any more 19 hour days, so nowadays I stay an extra night and have a relaxing journey home instead. It's a lot safer.
The modern world is a high pressure environment and people are often far too eager to please, whether in military, aviation or other spheres. Supervisors must respect the rights of subordinates to say "NO!" to unreasonably fatiguing work demands.
As for the pratt who once said that "Post-route stand-down doesn't apply to Sqn Execs....."
Fortunately he's no longer inflicting himself on anyone in the RAF.
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Beags, I admire the honesty and integrity, I really do. What worries me is how many more close calls are there that people are not reporting - ISTR the old condor and murphy etc etc etc. Would the young and the overstretched fill these in nowadays and would the spineless managers up the chain ( yes I do not think of many of them as leaders) actually do something about it.
As an ex liney I am now in the position I really did not want to be in - to be in a position to say to all my mates still in that "I told you so, etc". The scary thing is how short a timescale it has come about in.
Those still in have my greatest respect (generally) but they must keep the "I can do this as well as all the other stuff" in perspective. Keep an eye on each other out there and fly safe.
As an ex liney I am now in the position I really did not want to be in - to be in a position to say to all my mates still in that "I told you so, etc". The scary thing is how short a timescale it has come about in.
Those still in have my greatest respect (generally) but they must keep the "I can do this as well as all the other stuff" in perspective. Keep an eye on each other out there and fly safe.
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One of the major issues, fatigue apart, is how the legal eagles would interpret the rules and analyse your part in an accident.
Are you at war? Well, the Government doesn't call it that: it's called an Operation. Given that, are you then required to follow the "normal" peacetime regulations? Are you exempt those"normal" peacetime regulations when on a NATO exercise, or national exercise, Operation Homebase?
What exactly does "being on Ops" mean?
Are the "peacetime", "normal" regulations only applicable to training flights? If that is the case when is it decided that your training is complete? Are you, or your masters able to provide documentation to show that your training is complete to the required standard?
Once your training is complete what new set of regulations do you work to?
I won't go on, but you get my point.
The reality is that you need more specific guidance to cover your backs when the caw caw hits the fan. It's all very well pressing on regardless, finest traditions of the Service, Unit, Squadron etc but there may come the time when Sqn Ldr /Flt Lt /Fg Off Bloggs is called to account for " actions at variance with the published regulations" and finds that the top cover / back up has mysteriously vanished.
Are you at war? Well, the Government doesn't call it that: it's called an Operation. Given that, are you then required to follow the "normal" peacetime regulations? Are you exempt those"normal" peacetime regulations when on a NATO exercise, or national exercise, Operation Homebase?
What exactly does "being on Ops" mean?
Are the "peacetime", "normal" regulations only applicable to training flights? If that is the case when is it decided that your training is complete? Are you, or your masters able to provide documentation to show that your training is complete to the required standard?
Once your training is complete what new set of regulations do you work to?
I won't go on, but you get my point.
The reality is that you need more specific guidance to cover your backs when the caw caw hits the fan. It's all very well pressing on regardless, finest traditions of the Service, Unit, Squadron etc but there may come the time when Sqn Ldr /Flt Lt /Fg Off Bloggs is called to account for " actions at variance with the published regulations" and finds that the top cover / back up has mysteriously vanished.
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I couldn't agree more with Uncle Ginsters when he says
The pushing down of the decision to the ac comd (I think the term captain ceased to be in the military regulations around 2002) is an insidious form of smoke and mirrors. If the chain of command are going to ask the crew to go beyond the limits, then the must own at least part of the risk. It's not what decision is taken that's important, it's that the right people are involved and own it.
3. SS - Yes, the Captain is a major part of the decision-making loop, but he's only one link in the chain. Levels of risk have to be taken at the appropriate levels of command. It is impossible to define those levels, but it is incumbant on us all to understand and flag upwards exactly what risks are being taken on a trip-by-trip basis.
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YEp. Which is why taking on risk that you dont own is actually screwing your mates in a way. It becomes the accepted "norm" for a fleet, meaning those with much less experience feels as if they have to perform to the same level.
This is what will cause accidents in my mind.
This is what will cause accidents in my mind.
On another occasion, Ascot Ops hadn't bothered to note that the delayed departure of another aircraft from Brize meant that our return itinerary was impossible to complete legally. Although they'd known in plenty of time to ring me before busting any crew rest, they didn't. As a result, the first I heard of it was when my truly excellent groundcrew rang me to say they'd gone in to the airport early - and the jet hadn't even landed....it was still 2 hours out.
The itinerary, as usual, had about half an hour's 'fat' in it. Thus any departure delay of more than 30 min would make the itinerary illegal.
Why hadn't those useless beggars at Ascot sent a 'RevItin'? Because in the usual dumbing-down way of things, Ascot Ops was no longer the empire it once was; contrary to the airlines who put some of their brightest folk in roster management, Ascot Ops jobs were regarded as 'bad boys' postings, or twilight years posts....
So I rang them and asked for my RevItin. But first I'd checked with the DAMO at the airport to confirm that delaying the pax wouldn't cause an issue for them and was assured that they'd be 'kept in barracks'. So I worked out a plan with the Duty Ops bod - we would depart the next day at a time that would give us the maximum permitted crew duty within the rules. It was either that or arrive at Gander at 0100 local with 140 people to accommodate with nothing organised. Then I told everyone else the plan, thinking that would be the end of it.
Next day, off we trotted to the airport. After a de-icing faff (which would have busted our itinerary if we'd departed with minimum crew rest time...), we had an incident free trip home.
It was only some time later that I was hauled up before the boss. Some Bwigadier had moaned that his people had been late back (they were needed to fill in for striking firemen, sorry, 'firefighters', it seems..) and had caused trouble. Which had got to SASO, then down to station level. For it turned out that, contrary to the assurance I'd been given, the passengers hadn't been 'kept in barracks' - the poor sods had had to kip on the floor at the airport. No wonder their Oi/c had been sufficiently annoyed to moan to his boss about the feather-bed truckies... Why on earth the DAMO hadn't found accommodation for them, I was never told.
However, the station threw the problem firmly back at Ascot Ops, basically telling them to do their job and to support, not to hinder and harrass downroute crews when something unexpected happens.
Aircraft captains can only work on the information they have and the flight time fatigue rules laid down. If someone in a comfy office in the UK can't be bothered to assess the effect of delays on the often ludicrously tight itineraries dreamed up by their planners, why should the crew be expected to sort out the resulting mess?
I'm afraid that my perception of Ascot Ops was that it was keener to try and lean on crews to break the fatigue rules in order to save money than it was to ensure that itineraries were properly planned.
Is it any better these days?
The itinerary, as usual, had about half an hour's 'fat' in it. Thus any departure delay of more than 30 min would make the itinerary illegal.
Why hadn't those useless beggars at Ascot sent a 'RevItin'? Because in the usual dumbing-down way of things, Ascot Ops was no longer the empire it once was; contrary to the airlines who put some of their brightest folk in roster management, Ascot Ops jobs were regarded as 'bad boys' postings, or twilight years posts....
So I rang them and asked for my RevItin. But first I'd checked with the DAMO at the airport to confirm that delaying the pax wouldn't cause an issue for them and was assured that they'd be 'kept in barracks'. So I worked out a plan with the Duty Ops bod - we would depart the next day at a time that would give us the maximum permitted crew duty within the rules. It was either that or arrive at Gander at 0100 local with 140 people to accommodate with nothing organised. Then I told everyone else the plan, thinking that would be the end of it.
Next day, off we trotted to the airport. After a de-icing faff (which would have busted our itinerary if we'd departed with minimum crew rest time...), we had an incident free trip home.
It was only some time later that I was hauled up before the boss. Some Bwigadier had moaned that his people had been late back (they were needed to fill in for striking firemen, sorry, 'firefighters', it seems..) and had caused trouble. Which had got to SASO, then down to station level. For it turned out that, contrary to the assurance I'd been given, the passengers hadn't been 'kept in barracks' - the poor sods had had to kip on the floor at the airport. No wonder their Oi/c had been sufficiently annoyed to moan to his boss about the feather-bed truckies... Why on earth the DAMO hadn't found accommodation for them, I was never told.
However, the station threw the problem firmly back at Ascot Ops, basically telling them to do their job and to support, not to hinder and harrass downroute crews when something unexpected happens.
Aircraft captains can only work on the information they have and the flight time fatigue rules laid down. If someone in a comfy office in the UK can't be bothered to assess the effect of delays on the often ludicrously tight itineraries dreamed up by their planners, why should the crew be expected to sort out the resulting mess?
I'm afraid that my perception of Ascot Ops was that it was keener to try and lean on crews to break the fatigue rules in order to save money than it was to ensure that itineraries were properly planned.
Is it any better these days?
Not sure what era you are referring to Beags, but as the subject is Ascot Ops I assume it to be mine. As a Hastings/Hercules Captain 1966/73 I had little problem with them. My experience seemed to be much like yours and like you as captain I'd make the required dispositions but then send them an "unless" signal, ie "Unless instructed to the contrary intend to depart XXXX at ZZZZhrs for YYYY with Tech Stop at AAAA". Always worked for me, usually dug them out of a hole and allowed me to exercise my "Command Powers". As to the lying toe-rag of a DAMO the only recourse would be a Voyage Report, though that could be two-edged. One at AKR actively encouraged me to submit one against him following a "Mal-Load", reasoning that it might ensure his section be at last brought up to strength!
As regards Crew Duty Limitations, I assume that they are as clear cut as in my day, and you should stick to them. It is for the AOC to decide when and where his GASO's do not apply and to promulgate that accordingly. Ours did scrap Crew Duty Limits once for a reinforcement exercise backwards and forwards to AKR (again!). The top bunk rapidly became a hot bunk!
As regards Crew Duty Limitations, I assume that they are as clear cut as in my day, and you should stick to them. It is for the AOC to decide when and where his GASO's do not apply and to promulgate that accordingly. Ours did scrap Crew Duty Limits once for a reinforcement exercise backwards and forwards to AKR (again!). The top bunk rapidly became a hot bunk!
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Many fine sentiments and anecdotes chaps and I'm glad the willy-waving has stopped - most of us seem to agree.
To paraphrase all above
Fatigue is insidious - it creeps up on you and only when its too late to do anything about it, do you notice it. The only thing that will cure fatigue is rest - caffeine will only stop further degradation but it is a useful short-term fillip.
Fatigue must be thorougly understood and respected by everyone involved in aviation, otherwise there will be more smokin' 'oles; 'On Operations', or not - and we can't afford to lose any more ac/people.
(Note -There is a good (recent) book that would be a fine start/refresher on fatigue:
'Fatigue in Aviation - A Guide to Staying Awake at the Stick' - by Caldwell and Caldwell.) It comes recommended and should be issued to all aircrew, ops spt staff and senior officers!)
Fatigue is an oft misunderstood facet of flight safety and as we all know, flight safety is actually more important in war than it is in peacetime (because we have so few assets).
To operate or not? The buck stops with the Captain .....but Sqn Execs/Company Management/Ascot should forsee any fatigue problem and the Capt should be supported, not be left hung out to dry; doing the latter is very poor leadership.
Furthermore, it is no use just ignoring the rule book or bending the rules - Rules and Regs on fatigue are normally put in place to learn from others' mistakes and to prevent you from repeating them. They have been learnt the hard way. Therefore, ensure dispensation/extension is authorised from above if it is a truly 'op necessity' task/det and only then if there is no other option. If you leave this to the last minute - you and the execs have probably have not been thinking far enough ahead.
If anyone thinks they can routinely (eg more than 3-4 consec nights) get by with less than 7-9 hours shut-eye and still perform at the top their game, then they are deluding themselves. Look what that did to Maggie Thatcher and Tony Bliar - gibbering wrecks, the pair of them!
Those that get back to their rooms half an hour before wheels need to reassess their attitude and airmanship (yes, I've been a idiot too - but I learnt my lesson)!
Bottom line - If it is not a 'life or death' flight and if you or your crew are not rested - then go back to bed! As they say
It is "better to be late, than dead on time"!
Good discussion - now I'm off to bed to get my 7-9 hours!!!!
To paraphrase all above
Fatigue is insidious - it creeps up on you and only when its too late to do anything about it, do you notice it. The only thing that will cure fatigue is rest - caffeine will only stop further degradation but it is a useful short-term fillip.
Fatigue must be thorougly understood and respected by everyone involved in aviation, otherwise there will be more smokin' 'oles; 'On Operations', or not - and we can't afford to lose any more ac/people.
(Note -There is a good (recent) book that would be a fine start/refresher on fatigue:
'Fatigue in Aviation - A Guide to Staying Awake at the Stick' - by Caldwell and Caldwell.) It comes recommended and should be issued to all aircrew, ops spt staff and senior officers!)
Fatigue is an oft misunderstood facet of flight safety and as we all know, flight safety is actually more important in war than it is in peacetime (because we have so few assets).
To operate or not? The buck stops with the Captain .....but Sqn Execs/Company Management/Ascot should forsee any fatigue problem and the Capt should be supported, not be left hung out to dry; doing the latter is very poor leadership.
Furthermore, it is no use just ignoring the rule book or bending the rules - Rules and Regs on fatigue are normally put in place to learn from others' mistakes and to prevent you from repeating them. They have been learnt the hard way. Therefore, ensure dispensation/extension is authorised from above if it is a truly 'op necessity' task/det and only then if there is no other option. If you leave this to the last minute - you and the execs have probably have not been thinking far enough ahead.
If anyone thinks they can routinely (eg more than 3-4 consec nights) get by with less than 7-9 hours shut-eye and still perform at the top their game, then they are deluding themselves. Look what that did to Maggie Thatcher and Tony Bliar - gibbering wrecks, the pair of them!
Those that get back to their rooms half an hour before wheels need to reassess their attitude and airmanship (yes, I've been a idiot too - but I learnt my lesson)!
Bottom line - If it is not a 'life or death' flight and if you or your crew are not rested - then go back to bed! As they say
It is "better to be late, than dead on time"!
Good discussion - now I'm off to bed to get my 7-9 hours!!!!
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To say you cannot...
There are few events in modern life that exceed the news making potential of an aircraft crash; regardless of make or model. Quite often we have two choices:
1. Tell the powers that be, we cannot do the job because of factors a, b & c; don't make the news!
2. Tell the powers that be, we'll give it a bash, ignoring factors a, b & c. Don't get the job done; make the news, big time. Get no support from those above you, allow the BOI to make sense of your decisions and your actions, allow some poor sod to tell your wife and kids you're not going to sign down the aircraft.
You can apply fatigue or skill to options above, given that skill-fade, due to lack of training opportunities, experience levels diminish (as our experienced pilots’ haemorrhage), is a prevalent as fatigue due to over work and under-manning. More pressure is placed upon our aircrew now, than at any time in my (meagre) 18 years of aviation. People will forget that you said "you couldn't do it" a lot quicker than if you proved you couldn't do it.
What we do is inherently dangerous. Stay safe, regardless of aircraft make and model.
1. Tell the powers that be, we cannot do the job because of factors a, b & c; don't make the news!
2. Tell the powers that be, we'll give it a bash, ignoring factors a, b & c. Don't get the job done; make the news, big time. Get no support from those above you, allow the BOI to make sense of your decisions and your actions, allow some poor sod to tell your wife and kids you're not going to sign down the aircraft.
You can apply fatigue or skill to options above, given that skill-fade, due to lack of training opportunities, experience levels diminish (as our experienced pilots’ haemorrhage), is a prevalent as fatigue due to over work and under-manning. More pressure is placed upon our aircrew now, than at any time in my (meagre) 18 years of aviation. People will forget that you said "you couldn't do it" a lot quicker than if you proved you couldn't do it.
What we do is inherently dangerous. Stay safe, regardless of aircraft make and model.
Thread Starter
The problem we face now is that many captains genuinely believe that they "will not be able to hold their head up high"(to quote StopStart) if they decide not to extend their crew duty or bend the rules to the same effect. The feeling on the street (for instance) is that a delayed or cancelled airbridge trip will incur the scrutiny of some very senior bods who will be at the very least...unsympathetic to the arguments of the captain who makes the call.
Unfortunately, the blurring of the lines between operational and non-operational tasking (not that there should be a difference, particularly if the bulk of that tasking occurs in civil airspace) means that it is always assumed that a crew duty extension will be applied for and granted.
As for quality of rest, the GASOS that stated what was suitable accommodation for aircrew ( all aircrew, not just shineys) were removed afew years back. It seems to me that what would have been deemed unsuitable ten years ago is now deemed the norm. Why? Because once standards lower out of temporary necessity, they quickly become the accepted standard. And that goes for most things, accommodation, rest, exprience, saftey, documentation, airworthyness etc etc. And before someone cries foul for the emotive nature of that last one, how many of you carry snags these days to get the job done that a few years ago would have sen the A/C declared U/S?
Unfortunately, if a big accident does occur in the next few years, there will be a lot of people quietly saying to themselves that they knew it was comming.
All abit of a shame really.
Unfortunately, the blurring of the lines between operational and non-operational tasking (not that there should be a difference, particularly if the bulk of that tasking occurs in civil airspace) means that it is always assumed that a crew duty extension will be applied for and granted.
As for quality of rest, the GASOS that stated what was suitable accommodation for aircrew ( all aircrew, not just shineys) were removed afew years back. It seems to me that what would have been deemed unsuitable ten years ago is now deemed the norm. Why? Because once standards lower out of temporary necessity, they quickly become the accepted standard. And that goes for most things, accommodation, rest, exprience, saftey, documentation, airworthyness etc etc. And before someone cries foul for the emotive nature of that last one, how many of you carry snags these days to get the job done that a few years ago would have sen the A/C declared U/S?
Unfortunately, if a big accident does occur in the next few years, there will be a lot of people quietly saying to themselves that they knew it was comming.
All abit of a shame really.